Official 2019 Abu Dhabi Grand Prix Thread ***SPOILERS***
Discussion
Derek Smith said:
I feel like Winnie the Pooh trying to think.
So why the overfueling? Or rather why was Leclerc's fuel declaration low.
There are two possibilities:
1/ It was a mistake,
OK, so there's one possibility:
1/ It was deliberate in order to gain an advantage.
Can someone explain what possible advantages there could be? In shortish words, please.
5kg of undeclared fuel to play with however they liked i.e. over fuel when the sensor isn't watching and not risk running out of fuel at the endSo why the overfueling? Or rather why was Leclerc's fuel declaration low.
There are two possibilities:
1/ It was a mistake,
OK, so there's one possibility:
1/ It was deliberate in order to gain an advantage.
Can someone explain what possible advantages there could be? In shortish words, please.
dtrump said:
In shortish...
They have been using this extra fuel to gain more power.
And that power negates the weight disadvantage.
But the season is over now so no one cares.
Leave it.
The end
Deep withing the bowels of the FIA's secret volcano lair:They have been using this extra fuel to gain more power.
And that power negates the weight disadvantage.
But the season is over now so no one cares.
Leave it.
The end
"This Ferrari situation... Shall we leave it until season's end, then expose them just enough to show we're on it and shut down the stories by issuing a token fine?" ...
...In the gloom, a table of men wearing expensive Italian suits nod silently. The days work is done.
ELUSIVEJIM said:
Lewis has had Rosberg and Bottas while at Mercedes. Not exactly Championship material but Rosberg somehow managed to win one but you would not exactly say Rosberg will ever be remembered as a great.
Mercedes has had the best car since 2014. So it's not surprising at all.
The Schumacher years were detested by many due to one team having the best package in F1.
Suddenly it's a British driver has that same situation and it's fine to have 6 straight years of domination.
A British driver dominated for 6 straight years with a break in the middle? I don't want to go all 'eats shoots and leaves' but those words dont make any fMercedes has had the best car since 2014. So it's not surprising at all.
The Schumacher years were detested by many due to one team having the best package in F1.
Suddenly it's a British driver has that same situation and it's fine to have 6 straight years of domination.
king sense.And people hated how schumacher won. Lap dog team mate, one way data sharing and Dick Dastardly style ramming other cars.
You are taking this hard.
The Vambo said:
ELUSIVEJIM said:
Lewis has had Rosberg and Bottas while at Mercedes. Not exactly Championship material but Rosberg somehow managed to win one but you would not exactly say Rosberg will ever be remembered as a great.
Mercedes has had the best car since 2014. So it's not surprising at all.
The Schumacher years were detested by many due to one team having the best package in F1.
Suddenly it's a British driver has that same situation and it's fine to have 6 straight years of domination.
A British driver dominated for 6 straight years with a break in the middle? I don't want to go all 'eats shoots and leaves' but those words dont make any fMercedes has had the best car since 2014. So it's not surprising at all.
The Schumacher years were detested by many due to one team having the best package in F1.
Suddenly it's a British driver has that same situation and it's fine to have 6 straight years of domination.
king sense.And people hated how schumacher won. Lap dog team mate, one way data sharing and Dick Dastardly style ramming other cars.
You are taking this hard.
In my mind, so long as Ferrari conduct themselves as they do, the debate of GOAT for me automatically excludes their drivers - at least during years when it was very obvious Ferrari were exploiting their leverage in F1.
ELUSIVEJIM said:
paulguitar said:
Lewis will be in a great frame of mind saying goodbye to the season, as will the team.
Today's win leaves Hamilton 7 short of Schumacher’s win count, which is clearly a possibility next year if they make him a decent car again. It’s still amazing to me that he has managed this, I simply assumed Schu’s stats would never be matched. If Lewis had had the same no 1 setup as MS, I think his win count would possibly already be in three figures.
Lewis has had Rosberg and Bottas while at Mercedes. Not exactly Championship material but Rosberg somehow managed to win one but you would not exactly say Rosberg will ever be remembered as a great.Today's win leaves Hamilton 7 short of Schumacher’s win count, which is clearly a possibility next year if they make him a decent car again. It’s still amazing to me that he has managed this, I simply assumed Schu’s stats would never be matched. If Lewis had had the same no 1 setup as MS, I think his win count would possibly already be in three figures.
Mercedes has had the best car since 2014. So it's not surprising at all.
The Schumacher years were detested by many due to one team having the best package in F1.
Suddenly it's a British driver has that same situation and it's fine to have 6 straight years of domination.
In 1995, Herbert recalls setting a faster lap time than Schumacher in a qualifying session in one of the early races of the season. From that point on, Herbert was barred from looking at Schumacher's telemetry data.
"It was not easy to drive with him in the same team", "When I went there, I always knew it was going to be difficult, but I didn't realize how difficult it was going to be"
When Schumacher joined Ferrari and had a new teammate in Eddie Irvine as at Benetton, Schumacher soon had the entire Ferrari team working around him especially when team orders told him to give way to Schumacher
In 1999, when Schumacher missed almost half the season with a broken leg, Ferrari drafted Mika Salo as his replacement. Even though Schumacher was absent, Salo could still feel his deep-rooted influence in the team
Rubens Barrichello arrived at Ferrari in 2000 thinking he could beat Schumacher. But he rarely did so in the following five seasons. And there were times, most notably the infamous 2002 Austrian Grand Prix, when Barrichello was winning only to be told by the Ferrari brass to slow down and let Schumacher get ahead
After the incidents of the Austrian Grand Prix, Ferrari started to give Barrichello more equal treatment, but it was still a case of playing second fiddle to Schumacher. And that is one reason Barrichello asked to be released from his Ferrari contract one year early so that he could join Honda in 2006
Schumacher's last teammate at Ferrari Felipe Massa said there is nothing in his contract that states he must give way to Schumacher. Still, Massa is on record saying he will let Schumacher pass him if it will help in his quest for an eighth world championship.
However looking to the future -- Schumacher had to quit one of these years -- Ferrari signed Kimi Raikkonen for 2007 and told Schumacher he was welcome to the other seat but, for the first time in many years, he would have to share equal No. 1 billing which Schumacher didn't want.
If Ferrari's pairing for 2007 had been Schumacher-Massa, many F1 insiders believe Schumacher would have raced for another season.
Now tell me how that compares to Hamilton, to start with won all his world championships WITHOUT ANY team orders, he's had to race his teammates all the way, yes on occasion his teammate was told to let him through but Lewis always paid the favour back.....ALWAYS!
Edited by Doink on Sunday 1st December 21:23
TheDeuce said:
Yea... There is a difference between having a dominant car, and the team you race for being dominant politically in F1 and influencing the sport itself. See today's hi-jinks for details of the power of Ferrari and their rule bending habits.
In my mind, so long as Ferrari conduct themselves as they do, the debate of GOAT for me automatically excludes their drivers - at least during years when it was very obvious Ferrari were exploiting their leverage in F1.
You really think that In my mind, so long as Ferrari conduct themselves as they do, the debate of GOAT for me automatically excludes their drivers - at least during years when it was very obvious Ferrari were exploiting their leverage in F1.
If Ferrari had that influence in F1 do you really think Mercedes would have the best car for 6 years straight?
Tinfoil hat time
ELUSIVEJIM said:
TheDeuce said:
Yea... There is a difference between having a dominant car, and the team you race for being dominant politically in F1 and influencing the sport itself. See today's hi-jinks for details of the power of Ferrari and their rule bending habits.
In my mind, so long as Ferrari conduct themselves as they do, the debate of GOAT for me automatically excludes their drivers - at least during years when it was very obvious Ferrari were exploiting their leverage in F1.
You really think that In my mind, so long as Ferrari conduct themselves as they do, the debate of GOAT for me automatically excludes their drivers - at least during years when it was very obvious Ferrari were exploiting their leverage in F1.
If Ferrari had that influence in F1 do you really think Mercedes would have the best car for 6 years straight?
Tinfoil hat time
I know you're never going to remove it
Face facts. Ferrari bend the rules, they still can't win. And even if you take Mercedes out of the equation, they're now relatively (car for car) losing to Red Bull too! The reason Ferrari are struggling is because they're too reliant on their advantage and their habit of rule bending. Their rivals have had to make do without such advantages and subsequently have been forced to design cars that are simply... better. Better overall, which overall is all that matters.
Caught cheating whilst not even winning!? Ha! Sorry for the smugness.. I'm just an F1 fan that thinks it's more relative if the teams aren't pulling strings and undermining the rules.
Doink said:
Look we all know you detest Hamilton, but you win championships by being in the best car, you've admitted as such with schumacher having the best package. I'd give more credit to Lewis for his achievements than I would schumacer because right from the early days of schumacher dominance of illegal traction control, FIA favouritism, clear number 1 status written into contracts, his own telemetry kept secret away from team mates while being able to see theres, that was written in his contracts too, team mates who had to pull over to let him past, Irvine, Barrichello, Massa.
In 1995, Herbert recalls setting a faster lap time than Schumacher in a qualifying session in one of the early races of the season. From that point on, Herbert was barred from looking at Schumacher's telemetry data.
"It was not easy to drive with him in the same team", "When I went there, I always knew it was going to be difficult, but I didn't realize how difficult it was going to be"
When Schumacher joined Ferrari and had a new teammate in Eddie Irvine as at Benetton, Schumacher soon had the entire Ferrari team working around him especially when team orders told him to give way to Schumacher
In 1999, when Schumacher missed almost half the season with a broken leg, Ferrari drafted Mika Salo as his replacement. Even though Schumacher was absent, Salo could still feel his deep-rooted influence in the team
Rubens Barrichello arrived at Ferrari in 2000 thinking he could beat Schumacher. But he rarely did so in the following five seasons. And there were times, most notably the infamous 2002 Austrian Grand Prix, when Barrichello was winning only to be told by the Ferrari brass to slow down and let Schumacher get ahead
After the incidents of the Austrian Grand Prix, Ferrari started to give Barrichello more equal treatment, but it was still a case of playing second fiddle to Schumacher. And that is one reason Barrichello asked to be released from his Ferrari contract one year early so that he could join Honda in 2006
Schumacher's last teammate at Ferrari Felipe Massa said there is nothing in his contract that states he must give way to Schumacher. Still, Massa is on record saying he will let Schumacher pass him if it will help in his quest for an eighth world championship.
However looking to the future -- Schumacher had to quit one of these years -- Ferrari signed Kimi Raikkonen for 2007 and told Schumacher he was welcome to the other seat but, for the first time in many years, he would have to share equal No. 1 billing which Schumacher didn't want.
If Ferrari's pairing for 2007 had been Schumacher-Massa, many F1 insiders believe Schumacher would have raced for another season.
Now tell me how that compares to Hamilton, to start with won all his world championships WITHOUT ANY team orders, he's had to race his teammates all the way, yes on occasion his teammate was told to let him through but Lewis always paid the favour back.....ALWAYS!
Leave him alone. He's had a bad day. Not only did Hamilton win the race, he did it in style, dominating it in a way that must have impressed everyone. When I say everyone, I don't mean everyone of course, just everyone who enjoys F1 for what it is.In 1995, Herbert recalls setting a faster lap time than Schumacher in a qualifying session in one of the early races of the season. From that point on, Herbert was barred from looking at Schumacher's telemetry data.
"It was not easy to drive with him in the same team", "When I went there, I always knew it was going to be difficult, but I didn't realize how difficult it was going to be"
When Schumacher joined Ferrari and had a new teammate in Eddie Irvine as at Benetton, Schumacher soon had the entire Ferrari team working around him especially when team orders told him to give way to Schumacher
In 1999, when Schumacher missed almost half the season with a broken leg, Ferrari drafted Mika Salo as his replacement. Even though Schumacher was absent, Salo could still feel his deep-rooted influence in the team
Rubens Barrichello arrived at Ferrari in 2000 thinking he could beat Schumacher. But he rarely did so in the following five seasons. And there were times, most notably the infamous 2002 Austrian Grand Prix, when Barrichello was winning only to be told by the Ferrari brass to slow down and let Schumacher get ahead
After the incidents of the Austrian Grand Prix, Ferrari started to give Barrichello more equal treatment, but it was still a case of playing second fiddle to Schumacher. And that is one reason Barrichello asked to be released from his Ferrari contract one year early so that he could join Honda in 2006
Schumacher's last teammate at Ferrari Felipe Massa said there is nothing in his contract that states he must give way to Schumacher. Still, Massa is on record saying he will let Schumacher pass him if it will help in his quest for an eighth world championship.
However looking to the future -- Schumacher had to quit one of these years -- Ferrari signed Kimi Raikkonen for 2007 and told Schumacher he was welcome to the other seat but, for the first time in many years, he would have to share equal No. 1 billing which Schumacher didn't want.
If Ferrari's pairing for 2007 had been Schumacher-Massa, many F1 insiders believe Schumacher would have raced for another season.
Now tell me how that compares to Hamilton, to start with won all his world championships WITHOUT ANY team orders, he's had to race his teammates all the way, yes on occasion his teammate was told to let him through but Lewis always paid the favour back.....ALWAYS!
Edited by Doink on Sunday 1st December 21:23
Not only that, LH got fastest lap, on exhausted tyres, against cars with much newer ones. Can't you see what this does to a bloke like EJ. (He's not Eddie Jordan is he? That'd explain a lot.) He's going to go to bed and lie awake, chewing his bottom lip. His nemesis has won his 6th WDC. He's threatening the final records of Schumacher. It's not nice to throw facts in his face.
Other people are just pleased that they've seen the rise of one of the great WDCs, and maybe the greatest, who can tell? I mean, apart from EJ. My belief is that he's convinced LH is the greatest WDC ever. Imagine what that must do to him.
He's not allowed to eat bicarbonate after LH wins a race, you know.
ELUSIVEJIM said:
Lewis has had Rosberg and Bottas while at Mercedes.
Suddenly it's a British driver has that same situation and it's fine to have 6 straight years of domination.
Yes, Rosberg winning a decent amount of races and the title is my exact point.Suddenly it's a British driver has that same situation and it's fine to have 6 straight years of domination.
If Hamilton had in place a Schumacher style arrangement, that would simply not have happened, and Lewis would now likely be around the 100 wins level.
The fact that he looks likely to supersede Schumacher’s achievements is even more astonishing when taken in the full context of having had nothing like the advantages MS had for many seasons.
ELUSIVEJIM said:
The Schumacher years were detested by many due to one team having the best package in F1.
Suddenly it's a British driver has that same situation and it's fine to have 6 straight years of domination.
Depends where you’re from I suppsose! I’m sure the Germans loved Schumacher dominance...as the Dutch will love Max’s dominance if it ever comes.Suddenly it's a British driver has that same situation and it's fine to have 6 straight years of domination.
TheDeuce said:
May I borrow yours? Only joking
I know you're never going to remove it
Face facts. Ferrari bend the rules, they still can't win. And even if you take Mercedes out of the equation, they're now relatively (car for car) losing to Red Bull too! The reason Ferrari are struggling is because they're too reliant on their advantage and their habit of rule bending. Their rivals have had to make do without such advantages and subsequently have been forced to design cars that are simply... better. Better overall, which overall is all that matters.
Caught cheating whilst not even winning!? Ha! Sorry for the smugness.. I'm just an F1 fan that thinks it's more relative if the teams aren't pulling strings and undermining the rules.
I used to run an F1 fanzine website. I went for an interview with Ferrari about the rumours that they were bending the rules beyond braking point. I was invited to their tent next to their motorhome. Unfortunately, as I walked in the floor moved so much that the tables fell over, and I had to put it off. I know you're never going to remove it
Face facts. Ferrari bend the rules, they still can't win. And even if you take Mercedes out of the equation, they're now relatively (car for car) losing to Red Bull too! The reason Ferrari are struggling is because they're too reliant on their advantage and their habit of rule bending. Their rivals have had to make do without such advantages and subsequently have been forced to design cars that are simply... better. Better overall, which overall is all that matters.
Caught cheating whilst not even winning!? Ha! Sorry for the smugness.. I'm just an F1 fan that thinks it's more relative if the teams aren't pulling strings and undermining the rules.
I later booked a telephone interview with Eddie Irvine, but the PA didn't know who he was. She saw the team manager, but he said he'd never heard of him.
All the old jokes. It's the end of the season. It's the end of a great season. We've seen some thrilling races, more than in any season I can remember. It's been brilliant. It's a shame it has to come to an end, but 21 races is a lot.
I didn't see race 1, Oz, live and I was relieved. I saw race 2, Bahrain, and it was, if you remember, a fabulous one, with a great start, with Bottas playing a blinder on the first lap. It ended there for him. Then all sorts of incidents, but with the Ferrari of Leclerc away in the lead, and a confirmed winner. Until his problems. How sad was that. How pleased we were that the Renaults, with their synchronised failures, let Charles onto the podium. From then on, it was compulsory viewing due the the fear of missing a classic.
What a season. What fun. What enjoyment. I want more next season.
37chevy said:
ELUSIVEJIM said:
The Schumacher years were detested by many due to one team having the best package in F1.
Suddenly it's a British driver has that same situation and it's fine to have 6 straight years of domination.
Depends where you’re from I suppsose! I’m sure the Germans loved Schumacher dominance...as the Dutch will love Max’s dominance if it ever comes.Suddenly it's a British driver has that same situation and it's fine to have 6 straight years of domination.
Exige77 said:
37chevy said:
Doink said:
Why did CLC need nearly 5kg more fuel than was declared, is it because it uses more fuel than Vettels car lol, one for the conspiracy theorists
So a few questions1) was it an honest mistake or Ferrari cheating
2) what advantage would it be to start the race heavier than you needed to be
3) is this the first time ferrari have made this ‘mistake’ or is it the first time they have been caught with their pants down
4) if people believe it was ferrari cheating, why wasn’t fingers car the same?
Derek Smith said:
I used to run an F1 fanzine website. I went for an interview with Ferrari about the rumours that they were bending the rules beyond braking point. I was invited to their tent next to their motorhome. Unfortunately, as I walked in the floor moved so much that the tables fell over, and I had to put it off.
I later booked a telephone interview with Eddie Irvine, but the PA didn't know who he was. She saw the team manager, but he said he'd never heard of him.
All the old jokes. It's the end of the season. It's the end of a great season. We've seen some thrilling races, more than in any season I can remember. It's been brilliant. It's a shame it has to come to an end, but 21 races is a lot.
I didn't see race 1, Oz, live and I was relieved. I saw race 2, Bahrain, and it was, if you remember, a fabulous one, with a great start, with Bottas playing a blinder on the first lap. It ended there for him. Then all sorts of incidents, but with the Ferrari of Leclerc away in the lead, and a confirmed winner. Until his problems. How sad was that. How pleased we were that the Renaults, with their synchronised failures, let Charles onto the podium. From then on, it was compulsory viewing due the the fear of missing a classic.
What a season. What fun. What enjoyment. I want more next season.
All the jokes I later booked a telephone interview with Eddie Irvine, but the PA didn't know who he was. She saw the team manager, but he said he'd never heard of him.
All the old jokes. It's the end of the season. It's the end of a great season. We've seen some thrilling races, more than in any season I can remember. It's been brilliant. It's a shame it has to come to an end, but 21 races is a lot.
I didn't see race 1, Oz, live and I was relieved. I saw race 2, Bahrain, and it was, if you remember, a fabulous one, with a great start, with Bottas playing a blinder on the first lap. It ended there for him. Then all sorts of incidents, but with the Ferrari of Leclerc away in the lead, and a confirmed winner. Until his problems. How sad was that. How pleased we were that the Renaults, with their synchronised failures, let Charles onto the podium. From then on, it was compulsory viewing due the the fear of missing a classic.
What a season. What fun. What enjoyment. I want more next season.
They won't change until Ferrari do, so I guess they just won't change..And yes, I very much agree. Oz was s
te, you missed nothing. Then it's all been mostly awesome, or at least well worth watching. Except for the French GP, which is one of the few facts of life I'm truly bitter about. God I hate it A very, very good season. I'm slightly nervous about 2021 and beyond but I am very confident next year will be like this year, on heat. Extremely excited about it!
ELUSIVEJIM said:
The issue about 2021 is no doubt one team will have a massive advantage over the rest as this seems to happen each time there is a big change.
I don't want to see another period of dominance as we have seen with Schumacher, Vettel and Hamilton.
I'm sorry, that's very basic thinking. 2021 will likely be lead by the team that gets the pre cost cap R&D investment right, but that won't last for more than a year or two. After that, winning under the new limitations will chiefly come down to race-craft, along with whatever advantages can be found in the newly tightened areas of development.I don't want to see another period of dominance as we have seen with Schumacher, Vettel and Hamilton.
As for periods of dominance... Are you saying the best team and driver combo shouldn't continuously win a championship designed specifically to find out who the best team/driver is?
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