Official 2019 Abu Dhabi Grand Prix Thread ***SPOILERS***

[CardShark]

JonChalk said:

LeClerc started with almost 5kg more fuel than Ferrari declared, but he keeps his podium.

https://www.racefans.net/2019/12/01/leclerc-keeps-...

The racefans reporter/article writer has stated that Leclerc's car had 5kg more fuel than declared however the quoted statement within that article only mentions a discrepancy between what was declared and the actual weight/volume.

Where's the evidence to suggest that Leclerc's car had 5kg more than was declared? It certainly isn't within that statement.

Isn't it possible that his car was filled correctly as per optimum race requirements and that the declaration was 4.88kg over what was found?

If there's any evidence pointing towards a blatant cheat rather than a clerical error I'd like to see it.

[anonymous-user]

TheDeuce said:

I'm sorry, that's very basic thinking. 2021 will likely be lead by the team that gets the pre cost cap R&D investment right, but that won't last for more than a year or two. After that, winning under the new limitations will chiefly come down to race-craft, along with whatever advantages can be found in the newly tightened areas of development.

As for periods of dominance... Are you saying the best team and driver combo shouldn't continuously win a championship designed specifically to find out who the best team/driver is?

I am sure if Red Bull had carried on their dominance into 2014 and had a 9 year straight back to back drivers and constructors Championship many on here would have turned off.

The complaining when Vettel was winning for 4 years in a row was pretty clear at the time.

Yes the best team is doing the best job and that has been Mercedes since 2014. Is it good for the sport? IMO no.

[TheDeuce]

CardShark said:

The racefans reporter/article writer has stated that Leclerc's car had 5kg more fuel than declared however the quoted statement within that article only mentions a discrepancy between what was declared and the actual weight/volume.

Where's the evidence to suggest that Leclerc's car had 5kg more than was declared? It certainly isn't within that statement.

Isn't it possible that his car was filled correctly as per optimum race requirements and that the declaration was 4.88kg over what was found?

If there's any evidence pointing towards a blatant cheat rather than a clerical error I'd like to see it.

Does it matter? There was a discrepancy, whether over/under it's unforgivably inaccurate, in terms of F1. At worst they were doing something that equalled cheating. At best they're incompetent fools that spend £400m++ on entering an F1 season where success is found in tenths of seconds yet manage to mistakenly put significantly more/less fuel in to their car than they intended to. Cheat vs fools, take your pick.

Either way, they look like bellends.

[TheDeuce]

ELUSIVEJIM said:

I am sure if Red Bull had carried on their dominance into 2014 and had a 9 year straight back to back drivers and constructors Championship many on here would have turned off.

The complaining when Vettel was winning for 4 years in a row was pretty clear at the time.

Yes the best team is doing the best job and that has been Mercedes since 2014. Is it good for the sport? IMO no.

But 2021 regs are designed to disrupt such periods of dominance. What more do you want? and why is it good for the sport for anyone other than the best to win? What sort of sport would that be??

Something about replying to you makes me feel I'm encouraging a part of you that should not be encouraged. Had a few glasses of wine mind you, sorry if that's too honest

Edited by TheDeuce on Sunday 1st December 22:52

Edited by TheDeuce on Sunday 1st December 22:52

[TheDeuce]

ELUSIVEJIM said:

So LeClerc has 5kg more fuel in his car at the start of the race.

That means he would be heavier which you would think is more of a disadvantage but on the flip side, he could push harder during the race?

So is it actually more of an advantage to have more fuel?

Oh come on. Think it through - a car with zero fuel goes nowhere. Only fuel will make it move. Of course more fuel is an advantage, providing they can find a way to use it without exceeding fuel flow rates, or without being detected if they do.

All fuel is only of use if the energy it releases provides more motive power than is required to shift it's own weight - otherwise, what would be the point?

[anonymous-user]

TheDeuce said:

But 2021 regs are designed to disrupt such periods of dominance. What more do you want? and why is it good for the sport for anyone other than the best to win? What sort of sport would that be??

Something about replying to you makes me feel I'm encouraging a part of you that should not be encouraged. Had a few glasses of win mind, sorry if that's to honest

I welcome the fact new rules are to be introduced but I would rather have a closer field during a season than one team having such a huge advantage.

2012 and the useless tyres gave us 7 different winners in 7 races. This is extreme but it was IMO brilliant.

Lewis was just shy of lapping 6th in the race. Bottas came from the back to take 4th even when IMO LeClerc should have been excluded.

That is very worrying for 2020.

[CardShark]

TheDeuce said:

Does it matter? There was a discrepancy, whether over/under it's unforgivably inaccurate, in terms of F1. At worst they were doing something that equalled cheating. At best they're incompetent fools that spend £400m++ on entering an F1 season where success is found in tenths of seconds yet manage to mistakenly put significantly more/less fuel in to their car than they intended to. Cheat vs fools, take your pick.

Either way, they look like bellends.

My point, not that I stated it directly, is that everyone is going off on a tangent with the mindset that Ferrari tried to pull a fast one when there's nothing to suggest that at all, not as per the official statement anyway. It's as if we're intent on nailing something negative on the team, particularly after the fuel flow chatter - people are trying to make the evidence fit a crime that simply may not exist, that's not particularly fair.

Yes, they may look a bit daft if it was a clerical error however that's a long, long way from being a cheat.

[DS240]

So the car had more fuel...

What were they going to do with the extra fuel with fuel flow controlled anyway? Someone suggested earlier ‘when the sensor wasn’t looking’... how does that work then?

Was it not just a weight penalty if they couldn’t use the extra fuel?

Don’t they usually try to run as little as possible (not more) with fuel saving necessary?

Those who think it was part of a long running cheat, how come it wasn’t detected before now?

And if a new cheat, why at the last race if the season (presuming this would be detected at any race)?


Can someone highlight what the gains were here? Was it simply just an error of data/fuel loading not matching up?

[TheDeuce]

CardShark said:

My point, not that I stated it directly, is that everyone is going off on a tangent with the mindset that Ferrari tried to pull a fast one when there's nothing to suggest that at all, not as per the official statement anyway. It's as if we're intent on nailing something negative on the team, particularly after the fuel flow chatter - people are trying to make the evidence fit a crime that simply may not exist, that's not particularly fair.

Yes, they may look a bit daft if it was a clerical error however that's a long, long way from being a cheat.

And my point was that I don't know if they cheated, simply that either way they look bad. I can't see we have disagreed about anything.

If Ferrari were cheating by exceeding the fuel flow... my view has always been that is a cheat too far, even for them. It would be a shocking thing - too shocking to shake off.

Whatever the truth though, they had more fuel than they claimed they thought they had in the car. It makes them look stupid, and will only amplify rumours of cheating. If they played it straight, neither would be the case.

[TheDeuce]

ELUSIVEJIM said:

TheDeuce said:

Oh come on. Think it through - a car with zero fuel goes nowhere. Only fuel will make it move. Of course more fuel is an advantage, providing they can find a way to use it without exceeding fuel flow rates, or without being detected if they do.

All fuel is only of use if the energy it releases provides more motive power than is required to shift it's own weight - otherwise, what would be the point?

No, I agree. LeClerc should not have been classified. He IMO should have been blacked flagged during the race as surely they would have had time for someone to make the decision.

It sounds pretty clear cut.

No part of that has anything to do with what you originally said and what I responded to. You asked if the extra fuel was an advantage... That is what I responded to.

I haven't got the time to help you understand F1 - at least not so long as your opinions stand proud of your understanding. I'm sorry.

[CardShark]

DS240 said:

So the car had more fuel...

Don’t they usually try to run as little as possible (not more) with fuel saving necessary?

Was it simply just an error of data/fuel loading not matching up?

That's not what the official statement says.

Correct, as I understand it.

Quite possibly.

[TheDeuce]

CardShark said:

DS240 said:

So the car had more fuel...

Don’t they usually try to run as little as possible (not more) with fuel saving necessary?

Was it simply just an error of data/fuel loading not matching up?

That's not what the official statement says.

Correct, as I understand it.

Quite possibly.

Agree

Depends how you use the fuel, naturally fuel has more potential for motion than it's own weight holds motion back, that why we use it...

Agree

[StevieBee]

Doink said:

Ferrari have been caught cheating and the FIA bottle it once again and fine them $50,000, thats like 20 quid to me and you. I'd love to know how they came to that decision, clearly it broke 'A' rule for them to issue a fine but like horner said it was a technical rule so is black or white, your either illegal or your legal, pregnant or not pregnant as Ted Kravitz said

I believe that there was 5kg of fuel left in the car at the end of the race which negated any advantage it would have had which would have been marginal in any case. If the car was dry then I would have expected exclusion but as it wasn't and the extra fuel hadn't been used, then a fine seems the sensible penalty.

[CardShark]

TheDeuce said:

And my point was that I don't know if they cheated, simply that either way they look bad. I can't see we have disagreed about anything.

If Ferrari were cheating by exceeding the fuel flow... my view has always been that is a cheat too far, even for them. It would be a shocking thing - too shocking to shake off.

Whatever the truth though, they had more fuel than they claimed they thought they had in the car. It makes them look stupid, and will only amplify rumours of cheating. If they played it straight, neither would be the case.

That's cool, I'm not looking for a fight

I just haven't, as yet, read anything official that states Leclerc had 4.88kg more than declared. If there's anything out there that confirms that's the case then I'd like to see it, perhaps a link posted here for example.

[TheDeuce]

CardShark said:

TheDeuce said:

And my point was that I don't know if they cheated, simply that either way they look bad. I can't see we have disagreed about anything.

If Ferrari were cheating by exceeding the fuel flow... my view has always been that is a cheat too far, even for them. It would be a shocking thing - too shocking to shake off.

Whatever the truth though, they had more fuel than they claimed they thought they had in the car. It makes them look stupid, and will only amplify rumours of cheating. If they played it straight, neither would be the case.

That's cool, I'm not looking for a fight

I just haven't, as yet, read anything official that states Leclerc had 4.88kg more than declared. If there's anything out there that confirms that's the case then I'd like to see it, perhaps a link posted here for example.

There's nothing to fight about

Over fuel, under fuel - whatever the amount, the discrepancy exists and it should not. Honestly, I don't feel the need to theorise or understand it myself. All I know as absolute fact is that Ferrari are playing loose with the rules on some level, and in spite of that they still can't win titles. I think that's all any of us need to know when we consider how impressive Ferrari really are in F1 right now.

[Evangelion]

TheDeuce said:

... Had a few glasses of wine mind you, sorry if that's too honest

Doesn't matter as long as there's no discrepancy between the amount of wine you claim to have had, and the amount you've actually had.

[paulguitar]

Evangelion said:

TheDeuce said:

... Had a few glasses of wine mind you, sorry if that's too honest

Doesn't matter as long as there's no discrepancy between the amount of wine you claim to have had, and the amount you've actually had.

[TheDeuce]

paulguitar said:

Evangelion said:

TheDeuce said:

... Had a few glasses of wine mind you, sorry if that's too honest

Doesn't matter as long as there's no discrepancy between the amount of wine you claim to have had, and the amount you've actually had.

Evangelion, you irritate me.

However, that was pretty funny

Well done sir!

[E34-3.2]

ELUSIVEJIM said:

The Schumacher years were detested by many due to one team having the best package in F1.

Suddenly it's a British driver has that same situation and it's fine to have 6 straight years of domination.

I think that the Schumacher's years were detested by many not because the car dominance (only), but certainly by the constant cheating, dangerous driving and terrible team orders associated with his titles.

None of that can be thrown at Hamilton yet. Maybe number statue next year to match Michael? Who knows?

I am not British.

[DS240]

TheDeuce said:

CardShark said:

TheDeuce said:

And my point was that I don't know if they cheated, simply that either way they look bad. I can't see we have disagreed about anything.

If Ferrari were cheating by exceeding the fuel flow... my view has always been that is a cheat too far, even for them. It would be a shocking thing - too shocking to shake off.

Whatever the truth though, they had more fuel than they claimed they thought they had in the car. It makes them look stupid, and will only amplify rumours of cheating. If they played it straight, neither would be the case.

That's cool, I'm not looking for a fight

I just haven't, as yet, read anything official that states Leclerc had 4.88kg more than declared. If there's anything out there that confirms that's the case then I'd like to see it, perhaps a link posted here for example.

There's nothing to fight about

Over fuel, under fuel - whatever the amount, the discrepancy exists and it should not. Honestly, I don't feel the need to theorise or understand it myself. All I know as absolute fact is that Ferrari are playing loose with the rules on some level, and in spite of that they still can't win titles. I think that's all any of us need to know when we consider how impressive Ferrari really are in F1 right now.

Crikey, you have information that is ‘absolute fact’ that Ferrari are cheating. Give the FIA a call, they’d love to see what they missed all year... handover that dossier of insider info, blueprints, technical info, telemetry etc.