Official 2019 Abu Dhabi Grand Prix Thread ***SPOILERS***

Official 2019 Abu Dhabi Grand Prix Thread ***SPOILERS***

Author
Discussion

ELUSIVEJIM

7,731 posts

99 months

Tuesday 3rd December
quotequote all
Autosport

Honda is "very sorry" for the engine issue behind Max Verstappen's problem in the Abu Dhabi Grand Prix, even though the Red Bull Formula 1 driver still finished second.

After Verstappen made his sole pitstop just before the halfway mark of the race, he started to report a problem with throttle response in his Honda-powered Red Bull.

The problem did not stop him catching and passing Charles Leclerc's Ferrari for second in the race, but it was something that could not be fixed.

Honda's F1 technical director Toyoharu Tanabe told Autosport that initial analysis traced the issue to Honda's power unit control.

"We tried to improve it with some different settings during the race after the pitstop," said Tanabe.

"Then the driver compromised the application of the throttle.

"We are very sorry about the trouble during the race.

"Today, the problem didn't give him a big deficit in terms of position.

"But there was a big chance to give him a big deficit, it depends on the race situation.

"We should be perfect enough to supply our drivers and teams in terms of power unit performance."

Verstappen's ability to make the finish capped an impressive season of reliability for Honda, which completed the entire year without a race-ending failure on either Red Bull.

farm

2 posts

Tuesday 3rd December
quotequote all
Is 4.88 anywhere near the quantity that could have been left in/not removed after qually.
Remember the space shot where they mixed imperial and metric

768

5,482 posts

44 months

Tuesday 3rd December
quotequote all
Just had an Instagram advert from Shell, including a question for Charles on extra fuel weight. hehe

https://youtu.be/tSqYuGVCO8I

RemarkLima

700 posts

160 months

Tuesday 3rd December
quotequote all
37chevy said:
Exige77 said:
I believe there’s a temperature range when the weight should be taken.

It’s really splitting hairs anyway as it won’t materially effect anything.
not really, ive been over/ under weight in a kart race before because temperatures have risen/ decreased from the time I measured/ poured fuel into the tank to the point the kart has been weighed.
But you must have poured in x litres of fuel?

The point of using mass is that it isn't temperature dependent as before teams were chilling fuel to get more per *litre* - it's why they say its best to fill a car early in the morning as you get more fuel (a higher density) per litre.

By measuring in KG there's no wiggle room, at - 40 C it may be 0.9l and at +40 C it could be 1.1 litres, however it'll still weigh 1 kg.

Cabinet Enforcer

408 posts

174 months

Tuesday 3rd December
quotequote all
37chevy said:
Exige77 said:
I believe there’s a temperature range when the weight should be taken.

It’s really splitting hairs anyway as it won’t materially effect anything.
not really, ive been over/ under weight in a kart race before because temperatures have risen/ decreased from the time I measured/ poured fuel into the tank to the point the kart has been weighed.
Only if you measured it in by volume, and even if you did so then you are looking at about 200g for a kart tank(about 3%) for a temperature difference of 30degC. F1 teams do not measure by volume, this is not the issue.

The weight (strictly speaking we should use mass not weight) does not alter with temperature, IIRC the controls on fuel temperatures are there purely since having colder fuel can have performance benefits, it has nothing to do with the amount of fuel you can get in the car.

37chevy

3,280 posts

104 months

Tuesday 3rd December
quotequote all
RemarkLima said:
37chevy said:
Exige77 said:
I believe there’s a temperature range when the weight should be taken.

It’s really splitting hairs anyway as it won’t materially effect anything.
not really, ive been over/ under weight in a kart race before because temperatures have risen/ decreased from the time I measured/ poured fuel into the tank to the point the kart has been weighed.
But you must have poured in x litres of fuel?

The point of using mass is that it isn't temperature dependent as before teams were chilling fuel to get more per *litre* - it's why they say its best to fill a car early in the morning as you get more fuel (a higher density) per litre.

By measuring in KG there's no wiggle room, at - 40 C it may be 0.9l and at +40 C it could be 1.1 litres, however it'll still weigh 1 kg.
Don’t know how many litres, I measured in KG to get the kart up to a minimum weight...that then varies with temperature.

Just using a quick online calculator on 100kg fuel the difference between its weight is 1kg for every 10C temperature variance....so it’s more than you’d think

Edited by 37chevy on Tuesday 3rd December 13:48

Paul_M3

1,382 posts

133 months

Tuesday 3rd December
quotequote all
37chevy said:
Don’t know how many litres, I measured in KG to get the kart up to a minimum weight...that then varies with temperature.
No it doesn't, that's the whole point.

It's density and therefore volume will change with temperature, but 5kg will remain 5kg.

37chevy

3,280 posts

104 months

Tuesday 3rd December
quotequote all
Cabinet Enforcer said:
Only if you measured it in by volume, and even if you did so then you are looking at about 200g for a kart tank(about 3%) for a temperature difference of 30degC. F1 teams do not measure by volume, this is not the issue.

The weight (strictly speaking we should use mass not weight) does not alter with temperature, IIRC the controls on fuel temperatures are there purely since having colder fuel can have performance benefits, it has nothing to do with the amount of fuel you can get in the car.
As stated previously, I measured by kg...this varies with temperature as does density...

Cabinet Enforcer

408 posts

174 months

Tuesday 3rd December
quotequote all
37chevy said:
As stated previously, I measured by kg...this varies with temperature as does density...
Maybe the calibration of scales varies with temperature, but your kart didn't.

Otherwise, Albert Einstein would appreciate a call...

janesmith1950

4,284 posts

43 months

Tuesday 3rd December
quotequote all
37chevy said:
As stated previously, I measured by kg...this varies with temperature as does density...
How? What adds the weight?

I don't walk out my air conditioned office at 11st into the 30 degree sunshine and come back an hour later 12st....

BrettMRC

1,095 posts

108 months

Tuesday 3rd December
quotequote all
Bottas has topped the first day of post-season testing.

Looking forwards to seeing Russel in the car! smile

Exige77

4,044 posts

139 months

Tuesday 3rd December
quotequote all
37chevy said:
Exige77 said:
I believe there’s a temperature range when the weight should be taken.

It’s really splitting hairs anyway as it won’t materially effect anything.
not really, ive been over/ under weight in a kart race before because temperatures have risen/ decreased from the time I measured/ poured fuel into the tank to the point the kart has been weighed.
There’s no fuel limit in Karts, at least when I was racing. Has it changed ?

The kart, driver and his gear are weighed together.

You always leave a bit extra in the tank.

But anyway, we are talking about F1 and not karting.

peekay74

415 posts

172 months

Tuesday 3rd December
quotequote all
Cabinet Enforcer said:
37chevy said:
As stated previously, I measured by kg...this varies with temperature as does density...
nono

Weight won’t change with temp


Maybe the calibration of scales varies with temperature, but your kart didn't.

Otherwise, Albert Einstein would appreciate a call...
rofl




The Moose

18,969 posts

157 months

Tuesday 3rd December
quotequote all
This discussion has lead me to wonder a real-world question. Does that mean the cost of gas at the pump should fluctuate based on the ambient temperature at which it is dispensed?

Exige77

4,044 posts

139 months

Tuesday 3rd December
quotequote all
The Moose said:
This discussion has lead me to wonder a real-world question. Does that mean the cost of gas at the pump should fluctuate based on the ambient temperature at which it is dispensed?
No, it’s sold by the litre.

A litre is a litre.

Your car’s performance may vary with ambient temps but we are getting away from the red team either cheating or being incompetent.

shirt

19,191 posts

149 months

Tuesday 3rd December
quotequote all
rider73 said:
FIA seems to enjoy making that rule book thicker and "greyer" as possible.
Teams enjoy spending millions finding an extra advantage. It’s one of the roles of the FIA to make cheating an expensive exercise.

Paul_M3

1,382 posts

133 months

Tuesday 3rd December
quotequote all
Exige77 said:
The Moose said:
This discussion has lead me to wonder a real-world question. Does that mean the cost of gas at the pump should fluctuate based on the ambient temperature at which it is dispensed?
No, it’s sold by the litre.

A litre is a litre.
Well in theory it should change price depending on the temperature it’s dispensed at. Yes, it’s sold by the litre, but at lower temperatures there is more energy contained within that litre.

Say you bought 5 litres with at 0 degrees C, and I bought 5 litres at 40 degrees C. We’d both pay the same amount of money as the pump measures in litres and not kg.

The ambient temperature than becomes 20 degrees. You now have slightly more than 5 litres and I’d have slightly less than 5 litres. We’ve paid the same but now got different amount of fuel.

Of course in reality, the difference is so small it certainly wouldn’t be worth the effort and confusion of trying to take it into account.

Exige77

4,044 posts

139 months

Tuesday 3rd December
quotequote all
Paul_M3 said:
Exige77 said:
The Moose said:
This discussion has lead me to wonder a real-world question. Does that mean the cost of gas at the pump should fluctuate based on the ambient temperature at which it is dispensed?
No, it’s sold by the litre.

A litre is a litre.
Well in theory it should change price depending on the temperature it’s dispensed at. Yes, it’s sold by the litre, but at lower temperatures there is more energy contained within that litre.

Say you bought 5 litres with at 0 degrees C, and I bought 5 litres at 40 degrees C. We’d both pay the same amount of money as the pump measures in litres and not kg.

The ambient temperature than becomes 20 degrees. You now have slightly more than 5 litres and I’d have slightly less than 5 litres. We’ve paid the same but now got different amount of fuel.

Of course in reality, the difference is so small it certainly wouldn’t be worth the effort and confusion of trying to take it into account.
It’s still sold by the litre and not by the energy content regardless of temp.

Teddy Lop

1,979 posts

15 months

Tuesday 3rd December
quotequote all
Paul_M3 said:
Well in theory it should change price depending on the temperature it’s dispensed at. Yes, it’s sold by the litre, but at lower temperatures there is more energy contained within that litre.

Say you bought 5 litres with at 0 degrees C, and I bought 5 litres at 40 degrees C. We’d both pay the same amount of money as the pump measures in litres and not kg.

The ambient temperature than becomes 20 degrees. You now have slightly more than 5 litres and I’d have slightly less than 5 litres. We’ve paid the same but now got different amount of fuel.

Of course in reality, the difference is so small it certainly wouldn’t be worth the effort and confusion of trying to take it into account.

perhaps not in motoring (besides the smug satisfaction on filling up on a cold morning instead of later in the day and knowing you've maximised your value) but there's enough of a difference to make it worth both cooling the fuel in a special chilled rig, and risk cheating on the minimum mandated temp to F1 teams (back when they had in race refueling)

Paul_M3

1,382 posts

133 months

Tuesday 3rd December
quotequote all
Exige77 said:
It’s still sold by the litre and not by the energy content regardless of temp.
Yes I agree, but the point is that you do get (fractionally) more for your money when buying at lower temps which I believe is what Moose was effectively asking.