Formula 1 Pre-season Testing February 2020
Discussion
REALIST123 said:
Perhaps the important question is how much difference will it make?
I for one hope the answer is ‘not that much’. I really wouldn’t look forward to another season where we know who will win come May/June.
I'm with you there. I also think it's the end of an era, and it's impressive to find anything genuinely new, and Mercedes have found (so far) two new innovations - so I would say that does deserve some advantage for them. Innovation is after all a part of how F1 is won. The DAS is interesting and could help tyre management I think. The rear suspension trickery, if that works.. they already had a fast car with great downforce, if they have managed another jump in that area with no extra drag, the result could be potent.I for one hope the answer is ‘not that much’. I really wouldn’t look forward to another season where we know who will win come May/June.
But nonetheless it would be a shame if either/both proved so effective that they walked off in to the sunset from the very start.
I think Mercedes may have a different view though. From their perspective, if they're going to re-write the record book they'd rather do so with a bang not a whimper. They want this season locked down ASAP. Can't blame them.
While there's a chance of a protest from the other 2 big teams, they'll probably have the design teams be at their respective factories late last night looking at the feasibility of a similar system on their own cars. Either or both Ferrari and Red Bull might appear at the second test with a similar system. The packaging of such a system is the only snag for them, not the complexity.
Because of the FIA declaring (seemingly privately) to Mercedes that the system is legal, it answers the question of "can you use the steering wheel is a different access to adjust toe on demand". The answer is yes. The key thing is it's not that the other teams don't know how to do that, it's that they either hadn't considered the idea, or if they had, thought it would be illegal so hadn't pursued it. By mid-season, most teams will likely have some kind of dual axis steering system, and Merc's benefit will be mitigated (and hence everyone benefits from a bit more front tyre life).
The thing that sets Mercedes apart from other teams currently is that despite their run of championship winning performances, they haven't got sloppy, they're still pushing the envelope where they can, so whatever gains other teams might make, are levelled off by the small-but-useful updates and new ideas Mercedes bring each season.
The media are trying desperately hard to paint Ferrari's apparent lack of performance thus far as game over for them, writing them off before we've even arrived at Melbourne. It would appear more that they're not showing any cards at all, and nobody really knows if they've built a solid car or not. They've been bitten in previous years by showing too much, when other teams keep to their own schedules, making it appear they're onto something. I hope they're just showing restraint and going through the motions, analysing data and ensuring correlation, knowing themselves where they are.
In reality, they might well be some way short of where they should or want to be, at which point the reliance on Red Bull comes in if we want a competitive championship.
The pink Mercedes is an interesting one, and unexpected - that adds some spice at the top of the 'B' field. McLaren seemed fairly odds on for being best of the rest until a few days ago.
Because of the FIA declaring (seemingly privately) to Mercedes that the system is legal, it answers the question of "can you use the steering wheel is a different access to adjust toe on demand". The answer is yes. The key thing is it's not that the other teams don't know how to do that, it's that they either hadn't considered the idea, or if they had, thought it would be illegal so hadn't pursued it. By mid-season, most teams will likely have some kind of dual axis steering system, and Merc's benefit will be mitigated (and hence everyone benefits from a bit more front tyre life).
The thing that sets Mercedes apart from other teams currently is that despite their run of championship winning performances, they haven't got sloppy, they're still pushing the envelope where they can, so whatever gains other teams might make, are levelled off by the small-but-useful updates and new ideas Mercedes bring each season.
The media are trying desperately hard to paint Ferrari's apparent lack of performance thus far as game over for them, writing them off before we've even arrived at Melbourne. It would appear more that they're not showing any cards at all, and nobody really knows if they've built a solid car or not. They've been bitten in previous years by showing too much, when other teams keep to their own schedules, making it appear they're onto something. I hope they're just showing restraint and going through the motions, analysing data and ensuring correlation, knowing themselves where they are.
In reality, they might well be some way short of where they should or want to be, at which point the reliance on Red Bull comes in if we want a competitive championship.
The pink Mercedes is an interesting one, and unexpected - that adds some spice at the top of the 'B' field. McLaren seemed fairly odds on for being best of the rest until a few days ago.
So long as this isn't deemed illegal, which I don't think it will be unless politics come in to play, how quickly do you think other teams could copy this and incorporate it into their cars?
With the level of knowledge and skill that exists in every F1 team the only limiting factors are really financial and packaging. It seems more likely that it's a mechanical system that adjusts the position of the whole rack and so really there's probably not that much to figure out. Packaging is going to be the main issue as incorporating something like this into the car when it wasn't designed for it probably means there just isn't space.
That said, we haven't yet seen just how much of an advantage Merc get from this. Could this be a solution to their own unique problems due to other aspects of the car? Haven't Mercedes typically suffered from overheating tyres in the past?
With the level of knowledge and skill that exists in every F1 team the only limiting factors are really financial and packaging. It seems more likely that it's a mechanical system that adjusts the position of the whole rack and so really there's probably not that much to figure out. Packaging is going to be the main issue as incorporating something like this into the car when it wasn't designed for it probably means there just isn't space.
That said, we haven't yet seen just how much of an advantage Merc get from this. Could this be a solution to their own unique problems due to other aspects of the car? Haven't Mercedes typically suffered from overheating tyres in the past?
If it stays in and legal, and other teams want to do their version, they might need to do crash tests again if the nose of the car needs to be redesigned to fit it. Other than that it would be money against potential gain. It looks more of a gain in tyre life than a performance gain. Did Mercedes do any long run race sims using it yesterday?
Teppic said:
That was where my mind went, but those days are behind us no?
Fascinating idea, I guess an active camber/toe adjustment would be even better but illegal, are there any other road or race cars using such systems? It seems so obvious when you think about it - I guess everyone though adjustment was undoubtedly illegal but merc are hanging the manually-operated-via-steering-wheel system on the wording of the regs?
Interesting: https://www.autoserviceworld.com/jobbernews/merced...
There is "road car relevent" research to be exploited from F1 yet?
janesmith1950 said:
I'd laugh if Mercedes had no intention of using it but set the whole event up to distract the other teams and focus resource on it.
Many moons ago, when Don Garlits came over to the UK to race Top Fuel, he was seen as the innovator, the genius - everyone in the sport of drag racing looked up to him. One time he said "I could dip head gaskets in a muddy puddle, and you'll see everyone doing it the following race weekend". It could be Merc throwing everyone off the scent, but it's a very elaborate thing to engineer into the car if it's just for giggles.The reality, as noted above, is it could be that Mercedes find it's a fix for front tyre wear or heat issues, something that might not affect other cars, and so if the other teams trial it and find no benefit, they might not bother pursuing it any further.
Wh00sher said:
Merc have definitely spotted an area within the regs that nobody else has considered. Fair play, it's this sort of thinking that makes f1 so enjoyable.
It's obvious after the event but only once it's been highlighted by someone far cleverer than me.!
I'm confused how people are still suggesting this isn't allowed. Turning the steering wheel changes the toe of the front wheels. Any incidental suspension geometry changes are secondary. The regulations obviously allow the toe to be changed, otherwise the going round corners bit doesn't work so well
All the are doing is changing the toe by moving the steering wheel. Genius.
What people are forgetting on this thread is that the technical requirement 24.1.1 state that Ash absolutely hates Hamilton, and since this benefits him then it must be illegal.It's obvious after the event but only once it's been highlighted by someone far cleverer than me.!
I'm confused how people are still suggesting this isn't allowed. Turning the steering wheel changes the toe of the front wheels. Any incidental suspension geometry changes are secondary. The regulations obviously allow the toe to be changed, otherwise the going round corners bit doesn't work so well
All the are doing is changing the toe by moving the steering wheel. Genius.
How big a benefit will Mercedes gain on the straights by trimming the toe out? If it's simply a case of a binary, pull the steering wheel down the straight and release back before the corner, it's not going to be massively onerous on the driver. Almost like a manual DRS or a return to the F duct.
janesmith1950 said:
How big a benefit will Mercedes gain on the straights by trimming the toe out? If it's simply a case of a binary, pull the steering wheel down the straight and release back before the corner, it's not going to be massively onerous on the driver. Almost like a manual DRS or a return to the F duct.
As people hvae said above, the performance benefits will probably be marginal, although possibly still significant in F1 terms. The real benefit will probably come from having more flexibility in controlling tyre temperatures which is a much harder thing to quantify. Sandpit Steve said:
They just read out on the commentary, the draft 2021 rule about steering, which appears to make the new Mercedes system illegal next year.
I wonder, was it that draft regulation wording that brought the current loophole to the attention of the team?
I'd think that makes it even less likely teams will try to incorporate it in their cars this year.I wonder, was it that draft regulation wording that brought the current loophole to the attention of the team?
Sandpit Steve said:
I wonder, was it that draft regulation wording that brought the current loophole to the attention of the team?
I think more likely the opposite, that Mercedes went to the FIA asking about this sytem which lead the FIA to conclude that (1) it's legal and (2) they should make it illegal for next year.kambites said:
janesmith1950 said:
How big a benefit will Mercedes gain on the straights by trimming the toe out? If it's simply a case of a binary, pull the steering wheel down the straight and release back before the corner, it's not going to be massively onerous on the driver. Almost like a manual DRS or a return to the F duct.
As people hvae said above, the performance benefits will probably be marginal, although possibly still significant in F1 terms. The real benefit will probably come from having more flexibility in controlling tyre temperatures which is a much harder thing to quantify. It's more of a useful function than an outright performance advantage, bit on the straights a 'straight' set of front wheels has to buy a little extra pace.
kambites said:
Sandpit Steve said:
I wonder, was it that draft regulation wording that brought the current loophole to the attention of the team?
I think more likely the opposite, that Mercedes went to the FIA asking about this sytem which lead the FIA to conclude that (1) it's legal and (2) they should make it illegal for next year.Apparently Brawn has a whole team of engineers working with him to try and break the ‘spirit’ of next year’s rules. If anyone knows about finding loopholes, it’s Ross Brawn.
In other news (although still Mercedes..) Bottas already within 6/10ths last year fastest testing time, and on the medium tyre too. Looking good for this first week indeed. A few others also clearly looking punchy this year too.
What is happening at HAAS though? The cars don't seem to have run with anything like representative power yet.
EDIT: Bottas just took another 2/10ths off that time
What is happening at HAAS though? The cars don't seem to have run with anything like representative power yet.
EDIT: Bottas just took another 2/10ths off that time
Edited by TheDeuce on Friday 21st February 10:14
DAS will be outlawed next season. And allowed this season https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/148357/dualaxis-...
So will the other teams see it as important enough to throw loads of resource at for this season only at this late date?
So will the other teams see it as important enough to throw loads of resource at for this season only at this late date?
Why don't the press understand the difference between toe-out and camber?
Adjustable suspension has already been banned, so adjustable steering will follow
Getting rid of the toe out should give them a few more mph top speed - nothing earth shattering, and the front tyres won't run as hot, but will heat up under braking so should be warm enough by the time you reach the corner
Will they run zero toe out in the very fast corners - there might be more advantage there.
Adjustable suspension has already been banned, so adjustable steering will follow
Getting rid of the toe out should give them a few more mph top speed - nothing earth shattering, and the front tyres won't run as hot, but will heat up under braking so should be warm enough by the time you reach the corner
Will they run zero toe out in the very fast corners - there might be more advantage there.
kambites said:
I think more likely the opposite, that Mercedes went to the FIA asking about this sytem which lead the FIA to conclude that (1) it's legal and (2) they should make it illegal for next year.
That's probably pretty accurate.Have to laugh though; F1 touts itself as the pinnacle of motorsport/ technology, yet when anything interesting is introduced, it usually gets banned.
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