Formula 1 Pre-season Testing February 2020

[TheDeuce]

Teddy Lop said:

Is the banning of DAS for the best? part of me wonders if it had the potential to bring the field together once everyone had it, making cars less setup and tyre wear sensitive?

Also, if it's at all effective (can't see why it wouldn't be), it will be effective as it saves both tyres and fuel - that's just what happens if your wheels are pointing the 'right way' as you drive along a straight at 200mph.. The solution exists to remove the toe when its not required, why not let them have it? This is the sort of tech I love, as it's finding a little extra performance simply by stopping wasting energy (tyre scrubbing).

I thought FOM and the FIA were signed up to such commitments and were keen to explore new ways F1 can go use tech to be more efficient.

Bear in mind that so far the 2021 regs haven't actually banned the principal, just the method of control (dual axis steering). A point I'm that sure won't be lost on the teams/lawyers as they look to 2021 and ways of carving out small advantages.

[Teddy Lop]

TheDeuce said:

Bear in mind that so far the 2021 regs haven't actually banned the principal, just the method of control (dual axis steering). A point I'm that sure won't be lost on the teams/lawyers as they look to 2021 and ways of carving out small advantages.

that's a good point. I'd suspect any form of active control is not legal, but you could link camber to steering wheel angle, ie steering wheel input adjusts wheel in two planes?

And what's more why do we even still call it a steering wheel?

[The Hypno-Toad]

I'm curious to know if there was something like this built into the active systems in the early 90s. I know the whole point was to keep the tyres in maximum contact on the road and the car as level as possible but I would be surprised if they hadn't tried to replicate this system for another advantage.

Anyone got any clues?

[Deesee]

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[TheDeuce]

Teddy Lop said:

TheDeuce said:

Bear in mind that so far the 2021 regs haven't actually banned the principal, just the method of control (dual axis steering). A point I'm that sure won't be lost on the teams/lawyers as they look to 2021 and ways of carving out small advantages.

that's a good point. I'd suspect any form of active control is not legal, but you could link camber to steering wheel angle, ie steering wheel input adjusts wheel in two planes?

And what's more why do we even still call it a steering wheel?

It's toe, not camber - camber adjustment is covered and banned by other parts of the regs.

I was thinking the same, it could be an adjustment made as a certain point of steering lock is applied. It wouldn't be as effective as the Merc system should be though, as their drivers can use the toe adjustment in 2 ways currently: 1) apply toe only when needed for best turn in 2) apply it on the straights to deliberately increase tyre scrubbing to heat the tyres up.

If the system was steering linked, they would lose the flexibility. However valuable that flexibility might prove to be.

There are a few other ways the drivers could control it, and like the 'f duct' they can introduce whatever crazy method of control that happens not to be covered by the regs that year. At least until such time as the regs simply outlaw the principal itself - which in this case, I hope they don't.

[TheDeuce]

The Hypno-Toad said:

I'm curious to know if there was something like this built into the active systems in the early 90s. I know the whole point was to keep the tyres in maximum contact on the road and the car as level as possible but I would be surprised if they hadn't tried to replicate this system for another advantage.

Anyone got any clues?

I don't believe anyone has done this before Mercedes this year - at least not in F1. The benefits of active suspension were significant and dwarfed the kind of advantage toe adjustment alone can offer. I don't think in that era anyone was thinking about much else suspension or steering wise other than perfecting their active suspension and mapping it as perfectly as possible to each circuit.

[The Vambo]

REALIST123 said:

May I correct you? I’m wrong only in your opinion, which has no more value than mine or any other’s.

And if i may, you are misrepresenting what you actually said.

Categorical statements aren't covered by the retreating warcry of 'you can't argue with my opinion'.

REALIST123 said:

TheDeuce said:

Mercedes are off on their own race I think. The stuff worth debating is more like 4th place this season.

......again. Which, sadly isn’t really worth debating. Who cares who finishes 4th in any sport?

I cared about the McLaren/Renault fight for fourth last year, I debated it here and read similar debates on Reddit, F1 tech and other forums. I will care again this year too.

You are demonstrably wrong, no offence.

[LucyP]

TheDeuce said:

Teddy Lop said:

Is the banning of DAS for the best? part of me wonders if it had the potential to bring the field together once everyone had it, making cars less setup and tyre wear sensitive?

Also, if it's at all effective (can't see why it wouldn't be), it will be effective as it saves both tyres and fuel - that's just what happens if your wheels are pointing the 'right way' as you drive along a straight at 200mph.. The solution exists to remove the toe when its not required, why not let them have it? This is the sort of tech I love, as it's finding a little extra performance simply by stopping wasting energy (tyre scrubbing).

I thought FOM and the FIA were signed up to such commitments and were keen to explore new ways F1 can go use tech to be more efficient.

Bear in mind that so far the 2021 regs haven't actually banned the principal, just the method of control (dual axis steering). A point I'm that sure won't be lost on the teams/lawyers as they look to 2021 and ways of carving out small advantages.

The ban is correct. It should have been banned for this year. I'm surprised that Ross Brawn didn't insist that Michael Masi did so. Ross must be despairing. This kind of device is totally against one of his philosophies for 2021, which was to limit design freedom to stop the big teams with massive resources building cars that have a massive advantage over the others . It just shows that the teams will never toe the line. Adrian Newey was reported to be moaning only yesterday that the new rules were "very restrictive and prescriptive" and would turn F1 into GP1. Hopefully that means that the new rules are working.

Lawyers will not be involved, again that is totally against the new philosophy. There is a cost cap from 2021, so if you spend a few £million developing something with doubtful legality, and money on legal fees, and it is declared illegal, you will have to then spend money re-designing, and all those costs will count towards the cap, so it is unlikely to be worth the risk.

There were proposals for standard parts, some of which have been accepted by the teams, and some have been rejected. The philosophy was to halt the declining viewing numbers, and appeal to a wider audience, and not just hardcore fans. Mercedes spending more money on designing the wheel nut than Williams spend on the whole car, just to save a few hundredths of a second at the pit stop does not encourage new viewers.

The Mercedes DAS is in the same category. Unless you are a total F1 nerd with the full subscription package, and select the in-cockpit car view, and watch the race like that, then you will not see the Merc drivers pushing and pulling the wheel. If you watch the race normally, you will not be able to see the toe or castor or camber angle or whatever changes when they push/pull the wheel. 99% of the general population will have no idea what it is.

Ferrari think it is in breach of the suspension rules and have asked the FIA for a ruling. Autosport are reporting that it could be in breach of the parc ferme rules. I suspect that half of the F1 "nerd" fans cannot explain why that might be and none of the casual viewers could.

All this is being reported in the mainstream media, and it just gives the impression that nothing ever changes in F1. Technical arguments about rules and loopholes that end up in FIA tribunals. Just so interesting for the casual viewer.......So thanks Mercedes, you've just added another nail to the F1 coffin.

[TheDeuce]

I was surprised to see disdain for a fourth place 'win' if I'm honest.

The way I see it, there are a group of cars fighting for first place, which is the championship battle. Then a distance back there is another group, effectively fighting their own separate battles and 'championship'.

Yes in a way it's a bit sad/weird for fourth to be relevant so far as sporting achievements go, but viewed as a race within a race, it's just more sport for us to enjoy.

Last year, I expect that McLaren signed off the season with smiles pretty much as big Mercedes. Both teams achieved what they set out to do. Likewise this season Renault won't be thinking 'how do we win the WCC'? They'll be thinking 'how do we beat our f**king customer'? It's a great story to have running alongside whatever the top teams are managing.

[TheDeuce]

LucyP said:

The ban is correct. It should have been banned for this year. I'm surprised that Ross Brawn didn't insist that Michael Masi did so. Ross must be despairing. This kind of device is totally against one of his philosophies for 2021, which was to limit design freedom to stop the big teams with massive resources building cars that have a massive advantage over the others . It just shows that the teams will never toe the line. Adrian Newey was reported to be moaning only yesterday that the new rules were "very restrictive and prescriptive" and would turn F1 into GP1. Hopefully that means that the new rules are working.

Lawyers will not be involved, again that is totally against the new philosophy. There is a cost cap from 2021, so if you spend a few £million developing something with doubtful legality, and money on legal fees, and it is declared illegal, you will have to then spend money re-designing, and all those costs will count towards the cap, so it is unlikely to be worth the risk.

There were proposals for standard parts, some of which have been accepted by the teams, and some have been rejected. The philosophy was to halt the declining viewing numbers, and appeal to a wider audience, and not just hardcore fans. Mercedes spending more money on designing the wheel nut than Williams spend on the whole car, just to save a few hundredths of a second at the pit stop does not encourage new viewers.

The Mercedes DAS is in the same category. Unless you are a total F1 nerd with the full subscription package, and select the in-cockpit car view, and watch the race like that, then you will not see the Merc drivers pushing and pulling the wheel. If you watch the race normally, you will not be able to see the toe or castor or camber angle or whatever changes when they push/pull the wheel. 99% of the general population will have no idea what it is.

Ferrari think it is in breach of the suspension rules and have asked the FIA for a ruling. Autosport are reporting that it could be in breach of the parc ferme rules. I suspect that half of the F1 "nerd" fans cannot explain why that might be and none of the casual viewers could.

All this is being reported in the mainstream media, and it just gives the impression that nothing ever changes in F1. Technical arguments about rules and loopholes that end up in FIA tribunals. Just so interesting for the casual viewer.......So thanks Mercedes, you've just added another nail to the F1 coffin.

The thing is... What Mercedes have developed isn't actually that complex and wouldn't need to cost very much. The genius was to have the idea.. the mechanics of a steering rack that slides back and fourth to push the track rods apart isn't a major challenge technically. Isn't it in fact a perfect example of how teams can find areas of innovation and improvement without spending massive amounts of £££ on aero trickery etc?

And surely as it is 'F1' such innovation is part of the sport and should be embraced? It has been since the start. Albeit sometimes reluctantly when a team steals a championship swinging advantage - although that's not the case here I don't think.

[Graveworm]

LucyP said:

halt the declining viewing numbers .. appeal to a wider audience, and not just hardcore fans.

Been steadily increasing for ages up 9 percent last year alone to highest levels since 2012 That's just conventional audience Social and digital media audience went up 43.8% and 82.3% respectively in 2019 so overall audience is well up.

And as for hardcore fans - "Formula One continued to attract younger fans during 2019, with 62 per cent of new fans over the last two years under the age of 35.
IMO It's the "Hardcore" fans who are talking down the viewing numbers based pretty much on forums like this with opinionedata.

Edited by Graveworm on Saturday 22 February 14:29

[TheDeuce]

ash73 said:

Graveworm said:

Been steadily increasing for ages up 9 percent last year alone to highest levels since 2012 That's just conventional audience Social and digital media audience went up 43.8% and 82.3% respectively in 2019 so overall audience is well up.

Not doing so well in the UK:
https://www.independent.co.uk/sport/motor-racing/f...

I expect the reason social media figures are up is many of us just watch 5 min highlights on youtube, because the races are so boring. I can't even be bothered with the Ch4 highlights these days.

Viewing figures are crap in the UK because of the Sky deal, not the sport. 2019 was one of the best seasons for a very long time, and global popularity has increased since Liberty took over.

I personally find the highlights to be a somewhat soulless representation of the full race. Also.. if you're not watching a race unfold live.. it's always going to be tough to appreciate the drama and build up to each 'highlight'. It's like reading a book via a one page plot summary.

From the global perspective of F1, the UK is a tiny market. We might be in many ways at the core of the sports history, and we make most of the cars of course but in terms of viewing figure trends the situation in the UK is not representative of the health of the sport at all.

Edited by TheDeuce on Saturday 22 February 14:43

[insideline]

TheDeuce said:

ash73 said:

Graveworm said:

Been steadily increasing for ages up 9 percent last year alone to highest levels since 2012 That's just conventional audience Social and digital media audience went up 43.8% and 82.3% respectively in 2019 so overall audience is well up.

Not doing so well in the UK:
https://www.independent.co.uk/sport/motor-racing/f...

I expect the reason social media figures are up is many of us just watch 5 min highlights on youtube, because the races are so boring. I can't even be bothered with the Ch4 highlights these days.

Viewing figures are crap in the UK because of the Sky deal, not the sport. 2019 was one of the best seasons for a very long time, and global popularity has increased since Liberty took over.

I personally find the highlights to be a somewhat soulless representation of the full race. Also.. if you're not watching a race unfold live.. it's always going to be tough to appreciate the drama and build up to each 'highlight'. It's like reading a book via a one page plot summary.

My 14 year old daughter is one of the new fans attracted by the wider social media coverage and the Netflix series. She is now more hardcore than me who had been watching the sport since the mid eighties. She watches all the races live and devours every bit of social media content.

If this trend is growing and the number of her friends online (and real) suggests it is then there is a plenty of new blood coming in to the sport.

Edited by insideline on Saturday 22 February 14:49

[TheDeuce]

insideline said:

My 14 year old daughter is one of the new fans attracted by the wider social media coverage and the Netflix series. She is now more hardcore than me who had been watching the sport since the mid eighties. She watches all the races live and devours every bit of social media content.

If this trend is growing and the number of her friends online (and real) suggests it is then there is a plenty of new blood coming in to the sport.

That is the genius of the Netflix series, it unlocked and showed the wider world the drama behind the sport. Also it shows the scale of the undertaking each team makes to compete in F1. These facets of F1 can be appreciated and understood by people that wouldn't naturally seek out motorsport 'because they like cars'.

The younger generation of drivers is no doubt helping too, along with Liberty's well timed social media push.

All makes sense to me. These days 'celebrities' grow like bacteria, they're everywhere! But most of them ultimately aren't that impressive. Showing the younger generation the characters that compete in F1 was to show them a world where the £billions get committed to each season, the stars are 'at work' at 200mph+, and the glamour and adventure of the whole circus travelling the globe each year. For a generation that is addicted to drama, F1 is a good fix.

[The Vambo]

LucyP said:

Autosport are reporting that it could be in breach of the parc ferme rules. I suspect that half of the F1 "nerd" fans cannot explain why that might be and none of the casual viewers could.

I don't pay for Autosport but it would be hard not to agree with them.

Legal only once the lights go out then?

[TheDeuce]

The Vambo said:

Legal only once the lights go out then?

Exactly haha! Just set it in the optimum position for quali each circuit and lock it in position (which I notice the drivers can do..), and then when the lights go out, 'adjust' your car all you wish.

Personally I don't think it will get caught under parc ferme rules anyway, in the end the only adjustment is to the track rods, which are by their nature also 'adjusted' each time the car is steered.. Bit of a grey area and I guess ultimately the FIA could justify coming down on either side of the fence - so it's really up to them.

[jimPH]

How long before DAS appears on road cars, but without the moving steering wheel. Just a slight toe adjustment at the centre position and toe out when the wheel is turned.

[Clockwork Cupcake]

jimPH said:

How long before DAS appears on road cars, but without the moving steering wheel. Just a slight toe adjustment at the centre position and toe out when the wheel is turned.

I can't see there being any benefit or reason for a road car to have this. Not even for "as used in F1" bragging rights.

It's not even as if every sports car has DRS.

[The Vambo]

jimPH said:

How long before DAS appears on road cars, but without the moving steering wheel. Just a slight toe adjustment at the centre position and toe out when the wheel is turned.

Never. The slight scrubbing isn't an issue to a road car.

[Graveworm]

jimPH said:

How long before DAS appears on road cars, but without the moving steering wheel. Just a slight toe adjustment at the centre position and toe out when the wheel is turned.

In F1, personally, I have no objection to active suspension. It's pretty much mainstream in road cars already. I do get that it's an additional complication/expense but with a budget cap either take it outside and allow customer access or force them to make decisions around priorities. It has real world trickle down applications. I don't view it as a driver aid in the same way as stability/traction control or ABS are and could make for less reliance on aero.