Formula 1 Pre-season Testing February 2020
Discussion
Graveworm said:
In F1, personally, I have no objection to active suspension. It's pretty much mainstream in road cars already. I do get that it's an additional complication/expense but with a budget cap either take it outside and allow customer access or force them to make decisions around priorities. It has real world trickle down applications. I don't view it as a driver aid in the same way as stability/traction control or ABS are and could make for less reliance on aero.
It's not a complication / expense thing, it's because the cars were just so damn fast with Active Suspension. Also, I would say that it is a driver aid of sorts because it makes the cars easier to drive by mitigating weight transfer balance issues and roll oversteer. Clockwork Cupcake said:
jimPH said:
How long before DAS appears on road cars, but without the moving steering wheel. Just a slight toe adjustment at the centre position and toe out when the wheel is turned.
I can't see there being any benefit or reason for a road car to have this. Not even for "as used in F1" bragging rights. It's not even as if every sports car has DRS.
Something like a 911 GT3 which is used by people both on road and track has to have a compromised suspension geometry. It would be great if you could go to the track and press a button which gives you 'track geometry'. A little bit of toe out as per DAS, and also an extra degree of camber.
Clockwork Cupcake said:
It's not a complication / expense thing, it's because the cars were just so damn fast with Active Suspension. Also, I would say that it is a driver aid of sorts because it makes the cars easier to drive by mitigating weight transfer balance issues and roll oversteer.
Wasn't that more about ride height rather than geometry, which could, in theory, be separately legislated out? I take your second point though. Not a great deal of roll in an F1 car though. Edited by Graveworm on Saturday 22 February 16:44
Paul_M3 said:
It would be pointless for normal road cars, but a few road legal track cars could benefit from a variation of it.
Something like a 911 GT3 which is used by people both on road and track has to have a compromised suspension geometry. It would be great if you could go to the track and press a button which gives you 'track geometry'. A little bit of toe out as per DAS, and also an extra degree of camber.
For serious track cars which happen to have number plates, it could indeed be useful. Owners of such cars have their own forums where they'll spend their days debating and relating their experiences of running different setups - I can imagine they'd love to push a button and have 'the optimum' for where they are and how they're driving.Something like a 911 GT3 which is used by people both on road and track has to have a compromised suspension geometry. It would be great if you could go to the track and press a button which gives you 'track geometry'. A little bit of toe out as per DAS, and also an extra degree of camber.
That's a tiny market indeed though. Can't see even Porsche justifying the cost of developing a reliable system to offer such a function when the truth is, no one's really asking for it and will buy the car with/without it anyway.
jimPH said:
How long before DAS appears on road cars, but without the moving steering wheel. Just a slight toe adjustment at the centre position and toe out when the wheel is turned.
It's already there - 'Ackerman' angle allows the inside wheel to turn a tighter radius than the outer - built into the geometry of the steering arms on the hubs.The trick would be to give the full 'difference' at small steering angles.
Kim
The Vambo said:
jimPH said:
How long before DAS appears on road cars, but without the moving steering wheel. Just a slight toe adjustment at the centre position and toe out when the wheel is turned.
Never. The slight scrubbing isn't an issue to a road car.DAS, "improved fuel economy and tyre wear". That tech sells cars...
jimPH said:
There's lots of things that aren't relevant to a road car. Active aero isn't going to make your commute faster, I had a Mazda with an energy recovery system, no idea what it did.
DAS, "improved fuel economy and tyre wear". That tech sells cars...
My soon to be delivered i-pace apparently has an 's-duct'. I'm sure that'll come in to its own as I dawdle down the b roads DAS, "improved fuel economy and tyre wear". That tech sells cars...
Yea, if it sells slap it on the car and inflate the relevance in the brochure!
Even the stuff that does do something on road cars does it in a different way and would have been developed with or without F1. Adaptive suspension is a prime example - on an F1 car or was mapped to each corner for performance. On a road car it's simply a means of offering a comfortable ride and also decent handling without a compromise between the two.
TheDeuce said:
The thing is... What Mercedes have developed isn't actually that complex and wouldn't need to cost very much. The genius was to have the idea.. the mechanics of a steering rack that slides back and fourth to push the track rods apart isn't a major challenge technically. Isn't it in fact a perfect example of how teams can find areas of innovation and improvement without spending massive amounts of £££ on aero trickery etc?
Mercedes have said it's been in development for over a year.Seems a lot of time for something that's not a technical challenge and can be done on the cheap.
janesmith1950 said:
TheDeuce said:
The thing is... What Mercedes have developed isn't actually that complex and wouldn't need to cost very much. The genius was to have the idea.. the mechanics of a steering rack that slides back and fourth to push the track rods apart isn't a major challenge technically. Isn't it in fact a perfect example of how teams can find areas of innovation and improvement without spending massive amounts of £££ on aero trickery etc?
Mercedes have said it's been in development for over a year.Seems a lot of time for something that's not a technical challenge and can be done on the cheap.
I know it's F1 and everything has to cost a trillion by default and I'm sure Mercedes found ways of making it harder to accomplish by probably designing it 15 times to save 100 grams.. But this, at a mechanical level, really is a very simple device. It's a steering wheel that when pulled, pulls the rack back and fourth.
Their new rear suspension is the sort of thing that would really have had the designers scratching their heads and reaching for the cheque book.
Edited by TheDeuce on Sunday 23 February 08:19
janesmith1950 said:
You have no way of knowing that and your opinion appears contrary to the evidence.
What evidence? All you know is that it's been in development for over a year...What do you see as complex about how it works and what it does? The clever bit in my view was to have the idea and find the gap in the rules - the rest is relatively simple engineering.
janesmith1950 said:
You have no way of knowing that and your opinion appears contrary to the evidence.
You're just typing because you like the sound of your own 'voice'.
Same here as the Williams thread.
He’s right though. At the mechanical level it is pretty simple. You're just typing because you like the sound of your own 'voice'.
Same here as the Williams thread.
However packaging it is a problem.
Plus the fact that putting another degree of freedom into the steering means more joints and more potential failure points. Therefore they would have to ensure that it was strong enough to take the hammering that it does.
The Forth Rail Bridge? It was getting planning that was the hard part. Building the bridge was a piece of piss in engineering terms. Took 5 minutes.
Moon landings? Anyone could have done it with 3 months notice but the tough but was getting clearance from air traffic control to take off. Engineering piece of piss.
Immunotherapy for cancer? We've all invented this before, haven't we? Took the biologists 10 minutes to design but the authorities won't let it be used without regulation. All in all not a big job.
Google search. Come on, it's just a box you type in. I could have made that in my sleep in 1991 and just have had to wait for the internet to be invented.
Moon landings? Anyone could have done it with 3 months notice but the tough but was getting clearance from air traffic control to take off. Engineering piece of piss.
Immunotherapy for cancer? We've all invented this before, haven't we? Took the biologists 10 minutes to design but the authorities won't let it be used without regulation. All in all not a big job.
Google search. Come on, it's just a box you type in. I could have made that in my sleep in 1991 and just have had to wait for the internet to be invented.
janesmith1950 said:
Deuce, how do you do it? Igoring all the job offers from F1 teams and aerospace companies, I mean.
I already work as an engineer and love my job you probably have appreciated some of my work too..In any case, whilst you're on a campaign to make this personal.. there is a difference between self qualifying one's self for a career in F1 and pointing out that at a nuts and bolts level, some solutions are relatively simple.
Nampahc Niloc said:
He’s right though. At the mechanical level it is pretty simple.
However packaging it is a problem.
Plus the fact that putting another degree of freedom into the steering means more joints and more potential failure points. Therefore they would have to ensure that it was strong enough to take the hammering that it does.
The packaging is probably why it has 'been in development' for so long, as I said a couple of posts back, the idea would need to be on the table and cleared with the FIA before the car was penned - it couldn't really be an afterthought.However packaging it is a problem.
Plus the fact that putting another degree of freedom into the steering means more joints and more potential failure points. Therefore they would have to ensure that it was strong enough to take the hammering that it does.
janesmith1950 said:
The Forth Rail Bridge? It was getting planning that was the hard part. Building the bridge was a piece of piss in engineering terms. Took 5 minutes.
Moon landings? Anyone could have done it with 3 months notice but the tough but was getting clearance from air traffic control to take off. Engineering piece of piss.
Immunotherapy for cancer? We've all invented this before, haven't we? Took the biologists 10 minutes to design but the authorities won't let it be used without regulation. All in all not a big job.
Google search. Come on, it's just a box you type in. I could have made that in my sleep in 1991 and just have had to wait for the internet to be invented.
Are you drunk?Moon landings? Anyone could have done it with 3 months notice but the tough but was getting clearance from air traffic control to take off. Engineering piece of piss.
Immunotherapy for cancer? We've all invented this before, haven't we? Took the biologists 10 minutes to design but the authorities won't let it be used without regulation. All in all not a big job.
Google search. Come on, it's just a box you type in. I could have made that in my sleep in 1991 and just have had to wait for the internet to be invented.
Zoobeef said:
Giving the driver something else to do while driving is a good thing, more chance for mistakes.
Other than packaging it must be quite a balance to make it easy enough for the drivers to move but not so that its moved by accident.
That was something I was wondering. Given the forces under breaking and accelerating, you would think they would need some mechanism to lock it in place.Other than packaging it must be quite a balance to make it easy enough for the drivers to move but not so that its moved by accident.
TheDeuce said:
The packaging is probably why it has 'been in development' for so long, as I said a couple of posts back, the idea would need to be on the table and cleared with the FIA before the car was penned - it couldn't really be an afterthought.
Yes. The issues are the packaging in a very tight area of the car, persuading the FIA that the system is allowed within the rules, then convincing both the FIA and their own drivers that the system is safe in operation and in an accident. The actual concept is simple to an engineer, the genius is to the have been the first to think of it in the context of an F1 car.
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