Formula 1 Pre-season Testing February 2020

[TheDeuce]

Zoobeef said:

Good point. The question is then, is the biggest improvement from being able to run less toe on the straights or more toe in the corners?

Both equal pretty much, given that normally one takes away from the other. Track dependant too of course.

Throw in the ability for the driver to directly influence tyre temperature and/or to a degree, wear.. I think this could be very useful in several ways at pretty much every race.

A possible fifth benefit - could they run max toe out on the straights whilst behind a safety car/VSC to keep the tyres switched on whilst the field behind loses temperature?

[Deesee]

Wednesday AM session

Tyres used



Best sectors

[HustleRussell]

I have heard it suggested even in the Sky commentary that DAS might be constantly variable and that the drivers might be able to use it to try different toe settings for different corners etc etc.

I feel quite certain that it must be a two position device with some kind of detent / interlock such that it is either in one position or the other. I do not believe that with the longitudinal and lateral G-forces the drivers are experiencing the DAS can be operated anywhere other than the straights.

[NRS]

TheDeuce said:

VladD said:

Just as a slight off-topic thought, I've just spotted a link to the official F1 2019 racing game on the F1 web-site. I wonder how much work it'll be for the developers to build DAS into the game for F1 2020? Will gaming wheel manufacturers now have to introduce a push/pull wheel? Is it worth it for 1 season, unless DAS makes it's way into other formulae?

Bored at work, me?

It would be a lot of work to build in the sliding function, the better quality gaming wheels already have all the variable force-feedback gubbins already highly developed - bet no one wants to start re-designing that for the sake of allowing the wheel to slide back and fourth two!

However, many such steering wheels also have mappable scroll wheels on the front/back, which could be employed to achieve the same adjustment for the sake of making the game 'complete'. Wouldn't be at all surprised to see the developers update the game, it loses a lot of value as a yearly game release if the cars aren't accurate to real life.

Would it only function on the Mercedes too?

[TheDeuce]

HustleRussell said:

I have heard it suggested even in the Sky commentary that DAS might be constantly variable and that the drivers might be able to use it to try different toe settings for different corners etc etc.

I feel quite certain that it must be a two position device with some kind of detent / interlock such that it is either in one position or the other. I do not believe that with the longitudinal and lateral G-forces the drivers are experiencing the DAS can be operated anywhere other than the straights.

Suppose it depends how the lock/latch works? If it was notched in say 3 possible positions, pulling open the 'latch' and releasing it as soon as they slide the wheel, it could only move one step - hold the latch open and you can slide the full distance? I agree that once it is moving, given they have to move it under braking or powering out of a corner for best effect, they would have no ability to accurately position it if it was free moving.

I feel we might get a good way in to the season before someone finds decent enough camera angles to show exactly how they're operating it..

[Clockwork Cupcake]

HustleRussell said:

I feel quite certain that it must be a two position device with some kind of detent / interlock such that it is either in one position or the other. I do not believe that with the longitudinal and lateral G-forces the drivers are experiencing the DAS can be operated anywhere other than the straights.

I agree - I can't see how one could accurately set the position at anything other than a binary "in or out" given the g-forces involved.

That's not to say that it isn't linear, but a simple two position just makes far more sense.

Edit: Or possibly 3 position, as suggested by TheDeuce.

[Europa1]

Deesee said:

Duel Access Steering is all about the twisty bits, the upside is also flatting out the footprint of the tyre on the straightest bits, I wonder just how much allowance they can build in race by race, and circuit by circuit..

I wonder where they hide the pistol.

[TheDeuce]

NRS said:

TheDeuce said:

VladD said:

Just as a slight off-topic thought, I've just spotted a link to the official F1 2019 racing game on the F1 web-site. I wonder how much work it'll be for the developers to build DAS into the game for F1 2020? Will gaming wheel manufacturers now have to introduce a push/pull wheel? Is it worth it for 1 season, unless DAS makes it's way into other formulae?

Bored at work, me?

It would be a lot of work to build in the sliding function, the better quality gaming wheels already have all the variable force-feedback gubbins already highly developed - bet no one wants to start re-designing that for the sake of allowing the wheel to slide back and fourth two!

However, many such steering wheels also have mappable scroll wheels on the front/back, which could be employed to achieve the same adjustment for the sake of making the game 'complete'. Wouldn't be at all surprised to see the developers update the game, it loses a lot of value as a yearly game release if the cars aren't accurate to real life.

Would it only function on the Mercedes too?

I imagine so, at least as far as championship play goes. Every car in those games is modelled to match the attributes and behaviour traits of each specific car, as closely as they possibly can. That's not to say via options in the game they can't allow DAS for all if the player chooses, kind of up to the developers/producers how much freedom they offer.

[skinny]

Clockwork Cupcake said:

HustleRussell said:

I feel quite certain that it must be a two position device with some kind of detent / interlock such that it is either in one position or the other. I do not believe that with the longitudinal and lateral G-forces the drivers are experiencing the DAS can be operated anywhere other than the straights.

I agree - I can't see how one could accurately set the position at anything other than a binary "in or out" given the g-forces involved.

That's not to say that it isn't linear, but a simple two position just makes far more sense.

Edit: Or possibly 3 position, as suggested by TheDeuce.

The thing that interests me is how the adjustment is activated. There must be quite some forces on the steering rack as the thrust on the tyres pushes them to toe out. How is this actually overcome? There must be some clever mechanism that imparts a force from the column to the rack, but does not allow force to be transmitted in the other direction. Unless its electronically (or maybe hydraulically?) activated and not a mechanical link at all

[TheDeuce]

skinny said:

The thing that interests me is how the adjustment is activated. There must be quite some forces on the steering rack as the thrust on the tyres pushes them to toe out. How is this actually overcome? There must be some clever mechanism that imparts a force from the column to the rack, but does not allow force to be transmitted in the other direction. Unless its electronically (or maybe hydraulically?) activated and not a mechanical link at all

Leverage works massively in the drivers favour, assuming the movement of the rods is achieved by sliding the rack back and fourth. The steering wheel looks to move about 2", and to achieve a pretty radical toe out the rods would only need to move a fraction of that distance.

[HustleRussell]

TheDeuce said:

assuming the movement of the rods is achieved by sliding the rack back and fourth.

What leads you to that assumption?

[TheDeuce]

HustleRussell said:

TheDeuce said:

assuming the movement of the rods is achieved by sliding the rack back and fourth.

What leads you to that assumption?

Nothing factual other than the centre line of the rods is offset from the centre line of the rack. So if the rack was slid back and fourth, it would have the effect on lengthening/shortening the outer ends of the rods, and would effect toe angle. I had initially assumed a more indirect method of adjustment, but actually the angles involved would mean a relatively gentle pressure to push the rack could equate to a very significant force pushing the rods apart.

Makes some sense to me - although none of us can know for sure, I accept that.

However it works, it's clear the steering wheel moves far further up/down that the track rods need to move in/out, so the ratio of force required to operate is firmly in the drivers favour.

[dunc_sx]

The DAS movement also works in sync with the acceleration/deceleration forces. Back when accelerating and forward when decelerating which will help a lot.

Dunc.

[dunc_sx]

Mr Dendrite said:

I would assume they’re by Giorgio Piola. He is pretty amazing as a photographer, F1 tech analyst and the drawings he does of the tech are works of art.

Very impressive

[anonymous-user]

Generally speaking, the technical regulations favour mechanical means over electronic - certainly when it comes to adjustment of the car that's controlled by the driver. The reason being if it's mechanical, it's much more reliant on the driver operating it. The minute it's an electronic system, it opens up the possibility that it could have autonomy and work in a pre-determined fashion (with DAS, I expect if they could, it would be electronically controlled, and adjusted by GPS telemetry).

At that point you have an electronic system that can adjust in minute detail for the quirks of each corner. The basis of the current Merc system appears to be a 'simple' push-pull, with a datum toe-out setting being removed and reinstated, with no micro-adjustment along the way, controlled manually by the driver - it's likely to be the only way the FIA would allow such a system (albeit for one season only).

I expect Ferrari's want for a clarification is that if the principle is legal, quite how much can you legally do with it, mechanically, because a somewhat simple action of adjusting toe-out on demand, could be refined to provide a different value for each part of a lap, theoretically.

[rallycross]

Good to see Kubica showing some great times in the Alfa after a year stuck in a dog of a Williams there he is showing what he can really do.

[KarlMac]

VladD said:

Zoobeef said:

kambites said:

Zoobeef said:

Yes, the twisty bit. Which is where DAS has no effect.

I don't think it makes sense to sway "it has effect on straights but not corners". It removes the need to reach a compromise which works for all parts of the track; one would imagine Mercedes are running less toe on the straights and more toe in the corners than anyone else.

Good point. The question is then, is the biggest improvement from being able to run less toe on the straights or more toe in the corners?

They may be able to change it to be track dependant.

I would guess they're going for as much toe as is optimal in the corners knowing they can offset the negatives in the straights. If their PU is still the field leader this will help on straights as well.

Am I making it up or did they have issues with cold tyres last year? It could help with that as well.

[DaveTheRave87]

Blib said:

Unscheduled Vettel press conference at 3pm today.

Any news on this?

[anonymous-user]

KarlMac said:

VladD said:

Zoobeef said:

kambites said:

Zoobeef said:

Yes, the twisty bit. Which is where DAS has no effect.

I don't think it makes sense to sway "it has effect on straights but not corners". It removes the need to reach a compromise which works for all parts of the track; one would imagine Mercedes are running less toe on the straights and more toe in the corners than anyone else.

Good point. The question is then, is the biggest improvement from being able to run less toe on the straights or more toe in the corners?

They may be able to change it to be track dependant.

I would guess they're going for as much toe as is optimal in the corners knowing they can offset the negatives in the straights. If their PU is still the field leader this will help on straights as well.

Am I making it up or did they have issues with cold tyres last year? It could help with that as well.

DAS is expected to provide more even heating across the tyre.

[TheDeuce]

DaveTheRave87 said:

Blib said:

Unscheduled Vettel press conference at 3pm today.

Any news on this?

There is no news as such. Ted is repeating the highlight quotes on Sky now and in summary they were just talking about their approach to testing this year and suggesting they could go quite a bit faster than they have - which I'm sure we all assumed in any case.