F1 cancelled this year?
Discussion
C Lee Farquar said:
IMO Bernie always did a good job of keeping the manufacturers in check. Hopefully there will be a significant exodus and the racing will become more affordable.
Employing thousands of people to run two cars around a race track 20 odd times a year is patently ridiculous, by any metric. I think current events will shine a spotlight on that in any boardroom.
Not as rediculous as employing hundreds of thousands of people and spending billions to put man on the moon.Employing thousands of people to run two cars around a race track 20 odd times a year is patently ridiculous, by any metric. I think current events will shine a spotlight on that in any boardroom.
If you want to be cold about things, most things we do are rediculous and unnecessary.
Thankfully the human spirit for adventure and engineering excellence tops the boring f
ks who spend their lives moaning.Spelling ridiculous as "rediculous" is extremely ridiculous 
Regarding Apollo, you need to look on that project as an arm of the Cold War - a form of displacement activity that stopped the Cold War turning hot. On that score, it was hardly ridiculous at all in that a Hot War in the 1960s would have resulted in millions ending up dead and perhaps civilisation destroyed.
Instead we got something that inspired the whole world and helped bring people together - even if for only a brief period.
Regarding Apollo, you need to look on that project as an arm of the Cold War - a form of displacement activity that stopped the Cold War turning hot. On that score, it was hardly ridiculous at all in that a Hot War in the 1960s would have resulted in millions ending up dead and perhaps civilisation destroyed.
Instead we got something that inspired the whole world and helped bring people together - even if for only a brief period.
But a man was put on the moon by the US Government, not a private company. Musk and Branson's current efforts have amounted to nothing, and they are only doing it to make money.
The justifying phrase was always - "Win on Sunday, sell on Monday", but does that apply anymore? Perhaps some Ferrari and McLaren customers buy the road cars because of some perceived F1 link, but most buy the former because it is a Ferrari, and like to say that they have, and be seen in their Ferrari. Most buy the latter, because they are good cars. Providing the motoring journalists keep rating them highly, then they will sell. Frankly the Ferrari brand is so strong, you could put the logo on a baseball cap, or a theme park and it would sell. Oh hang on.....!
As for Mercedes. How many "buy" a 1.3 A Class because of the F1 link? They lease one for 2 years because the monthly repayments and the initial deposit for an A180 1.3 SE is cheaper than a Vauxhall Astra 1.2 Turbo SE, and because they would rather drive and tell their friends that they have a Merc, than a Vauxhall.
As for Renault, their best selling car in the UK is the Captur. I am not sure how many buyers of the 0.9 litre 89 bhp version even know that Renault are in F1, let alone care. They would probably be much happier if they saved the money given their results last year. Hard to "sell on Monday", when they scored zero points for 8 of the racing Sundays last year!
The justifying phrase was always - "Win on Sunday, sell on Monday", but does that apply anymore? Perhaps some Ferrari and McLaren customers buy the road cars because of some perceived F1 link, but most buy the former because it is a Ferrari, and like to say that they have, and be seen in their Ferrari. Most buy the latter, because they are good cars. Providing the motoring journalists keep rating them highly, then they will sell. Frankly the Ferrari brand is so strong, you could put the logo on a baseball cap, or a theme park and it would sell. Oh hang on.....!
As for Mercedes. How many "buy" a 1.3 A Class because of the F1 link? They lease one for 2 years because the monthly repayments and the initial deposit for an A180 1.3 SE is cheaper than a Vauxhall Astra 1.2 Turbo SE, and because they would rather drive and tell their friends that they have a Merc, than a Vauxhall.
As for Renault, their best selling car in the UK is the Captur. I am not sure how many buyers of the 0.9 litre 89 bhp version even know that Renault are in F1, let alone care. They would probably be much happier if they saved the money given their results last year. Hard to "sell on Monday", when they scored zero points for 8 of the racing Sundays last year!
LucyP said:
But a man was put on the moon by the US Government, not a private company. Musk and Branson's current efforts have amounted to nothing, and they are only doing it to make money.
The justifying phrase was always - "Win on Sunday, sell on Monday", but does that apply anymore? Perhaps some Ferrari and McLaren customers buy the road cars because of some perceived F1 link, but most buy the former because it is a Ferrari, and like to say that they have, and be seen in their Ferrari. Most buy the latter, because they are good cars. Providing the motoring journalists keep rating them highly, then they will sell. Frankly the Ferrari brand is so strong, you could put the logo on a baseball cap, or a theme park and it would sell. Oh hang on.....!
As for Mercedes. How many "buy" a 1.3 A Class because of the F1 link? They lease one for 2 years because the monthly repayments and the initial deposit for an A180 1.3 SE is cheaper than a Vauxhall Astra 1.2 Turbo SE, and because they would rather drive and tell their friends that they have a Merc, than a Vauxhall.
As for Renault, their best selling car in the UK is the Captur. I am not sure how many buyers of the 0.9 litre 89 bhp version even know that Renault are in F1, let alone care. They would probably be much happier if they saved the money given their results last year. Hard to "sell on Monday", when they scored zero points for 8 of the racing Sundays last year!
Promotion/advertising is a sophisticated, and data-driven, industry. If F1 didn't work for those throwing money at it, they'd be out. If you wander along to Mercedes-Benz World, at least before it closed, you'd see lots of push on F1. Going into the cinema there on race day is surreal as it's often sparsely populated but many of the visitors to M-B W are wearing the baseball caps with the F1 badging yet not bothering to see even the start.The justifying phrase was always - "Win on Sunday, sell on Monday", but does that apply anymore? Perhaps some Ferrari and McLaren customers buy the road cars because of some perceived F1 link, but most buy the former because it is a Ferrari, and like to say that they have, and be seen in their Ferrari. Most buy the latter, because they are good cars. Providing the motoring journalists keep rating them highly, then they will sell. Frankly the Ferrari brand is so strong, you could put the logo on a baseball cap, or a theme park and it would sell. Oh hang on.....!
As for Mercedes. How many "buy" a 1.3 A Class because of the F1 link? They lease one for 2 years because the monthly repayments and the initial deposit for an A180 1.3 SE is cheaper than a Vauxhall Astra 1.2 Turbo SE, and because they would rather drive and tell their friends that they have a Merc, than a Vauxhall.
As for Renault, their best selling car in the UK is the Captur. I am not sure how many buyers of the 0.9 litre 89 bhp version even know that Renault are in F1, let alone care. They would probably be much happier if they saved the money given their results last year. Hard to "sell on Monday", when they scored zero points for 8 of the racing Sundays last year!
I don't pretend to understand their mindset, but I do know a bit about advertising. It works.
I understand your point Derek, but does it really work for an ordinary manufacturer? I don't think it does at all. Does anyone buying a 89 bhp C(r)aptur make any link with the F1 operation or think they are Ricciardo or Ocon? I can't see how or why. I don't think it's how people buy cars like that. I think they test all the rivals, see which they like best/suits their needs best/who offers the best deal.
Porsche, yes. I understand the link, because you can buy the road car that at least looks like the one you saw on track, even if that is where the similarities end. And you can have GT2s and 3s that bring cages, stripped out, race seats, to allow you to live out that fantasy. But an 89 bhp Renault?
And as I said, the Mercedes A Class sell is an easy one. A Merc for less than a Vauxhall.
Porsche, yes. I understand the link, because you can buy the road car that at least looks like the one you saw on track, even if that is where the similarities end. And you can have GT2s and 3s that bring cages, stripped out, race seats, to allow you to live out that fantasy. But an 89 bhp Renault?
And as I said, the Mercedes A Class sell is an easy one. A Merc for less than a Vauxhall.
jsf said:
If you want to be cold about things, most things we do are rediculous and unnecessary.
Yes and all the better for it. However I'm assuming that during and after this outbreak most of us will be spending some time reflecting and shifting perspective. The perimeters of our lives have changed, and that experience will be with us for a generation.I think F1 will change too, for the better, very quickly.
Apart from anything else this pandemic gives all the manufacturers, with the possible exception of Ferrari, an entirely plausible and even laudable reason to withdraw.
LucyP said:
I understand your point Derek, but does it really work for an ordinary manufacturer? I don't think it does at all. Does anyone buying a 89 bhp C(r)aptur make any link with the F1 operation or think they are Ricciardo or Ocon? I can't see how or why. I don't think it's how people buy cars like that. I think they test all the rivals, see which they like best/suits their needs best/who offers the best deal.
Porsche, yes. I understand the link, because you can buy the road car that at least looks like the one you saw on track, even if that is where the similarities end. And you can have GT2s and 3s that bring cages, stripped out, race seats, to allow you to live out that fantasy. But an 89 bhp Renault?
And as I said, the Mercedes A Class sell is an easy one. A Merc for less than a Vauxhall.
My brother is a top creative in advertising, you will have seen many of his campaigns over the past 30 years. Marketing works incredibly well at all levels, most of us have no idea we are being manipulated and nudged in the direction the marketing sends us.Porsche, yes. I understand the link, because you can buy the road car that at least looks like the one you saw on track, even if that is where the similarities end. And you can have GT2s and 3s that bring cages, stripped out, race seats, to allow you to live out that fantasy. But an 89 bhp Renault?
And as I said, the Mercedes A Class sell is an easy one. A Merc for less than a Vauxhall.
There is a real science to this stuff and those who are good at it earn a lot of money.
My dads best friend and former business associate owned an F1 team or should I say he was the ceo and chair of the company that bought an F1 team.
They did it purely for the advertising of their cancer causing product. I understand that they decided they wanted out as it haemorrhaged money and didn’t provide any evidence of a return on investment. But I could be wrong.
They did it purely for the advertising of their cancer causing product. I understand that they decided they wanted out as it haemorrhaged money and didn’t provide any evidence of a return on investment. But I could be wrong.
Clockwork Cupcake said:
Well, it must do. Or they wouldn't be in F1, as Derek points out.
Clearly they see a benefit to being in F1, even if you can't.
Well as C Lee Farquar points out, that might be about to change.Clearly they see a benefit to being in F1, even if you can't.
Renault lost $153 million last year and put $90 million into the F1 team's pot. I just don't believe that had they not spent that $90 million that their losses would have been as much as $243 million, and even if they had been, then they would have been no worse off! I just do not believe that the $90 million cost of F1 brought $90 million in profit to Renault. It was a waste of money.
Subsequently, Renault promised to cut $2.2 billion from the operating costs, and that was pre-Corona. I think they know where the first $90 million in savings lies.
PSA have no F1 involvement and since Citroen exited the WRC, essentially no motorsport involvement at all, and their profits rose to $3.59 billion last year.
F1 is a vanity project only.
C Lee Farquar said:
Yes and all the better for it. However I'm assuming that during and after this outbreak most of us will be spending some time reflecting and shifting perspective. The perimeters of our lives have changed, and that experience will be with us for a generation.
I think F1 will change too, for the better, very quickly.
Apart from anything else this pandemic gives all the manufacturers, with the possible exception of Ferrari, an entirely plausible and even laudable reason to withdraw.
Agree with this.I think F1 will change too, for the better, very quickly.
Apart from anything else this pandemic gives all the manufacturers, with the possible exception of Ferrari, an entirely plausible and even laudable reason to withdraw.
I attended a talk with Adrian Newey fairly recently and he commented on the big jump from 40 people per team to 100 staff during the 80's.
Increasing that number to 1,000 has not done anything to increase the spectacle.
F1 could easily become more compact if they recalibrate some of the excess.
Not any time soon.
It seems more and more unlikely that there will be a season this year, the rule change bump to 2022 tacitly says as much. Even if it were possible to run a few races (not enough for a viable championship I suspect) it would be poorly received given the circumstances.
On the plus side at least it gives all the teams (the ones that survive) chance to develop their own DAS in time for 2021 season where Mercedes will turn up with something else.
It seems more and more unlikely that there will be a season this year, the rule change bump to 2022 tacitly says as much. Even if it were possible to run a few races (not enough for a viable championship I suspect) it would be poorly received given the circumstances.
On the plus side at least it gives all the teams (the ones that survive) chance to develop their own DAS in time for 2021 season where Mercedes will turn up with something else.
MG CHRIS said:
The only way I can see it surviving is if it goes back to a gentlemen excuse to go racing with formula e being the format for manufactures to push electric tech. Ice are old hat and manuafactures would want to push new tech in a post covid 19 world.
Very interesting times ahead.
Four round rubber tyres are also old hat.Very interesting times ahead.
There is growing concern in scientific circles that precious metal mining for batteries is more damaging to our environment than originally thought.
Manufacturers have lobbied governments very well so far in pushing the EV argument.
sparta6 said:
MG CHRIS said:
The only way I can see it surviving is if it goes back to a gentlemen excuse to go racing with formula e being the format for manufactures to push electric tech. Ice are old hat and manuafactures would want to push new tech in a post covid 19 world.
Very interesting times ahead.
Four round rubber tyres are also old hat.Very interesting times ahead.
There is growing concern in scientific circles that precious metal mining for batteries is more damaging to our environment than originally thought.
Manufacturers have lobbied governments very well so far in pushing the EV argument.
The technology sadly isn't quite as advanced as people's good intentions are, at least not yet. We're so close though - and when solid state cells are proven and mainstream, our world will transform.
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