The Official F1 2021 silly season *contains speculation*
Discussion
Deesee said:
How long is Russells underlying contract with Merc? Not sure. Russell won his drive and IMO did very well last year, If Merc put him in the 2021 car would that be too soon, I'd say so and as much as he is deserving of a better drive, sometime you just have to play the hand you're dealt.
I think most young driver deals are renewed annually dependant on performance or so it seems? Even Hamilton was dropped by McLaren for a period! Mind you I think Russell is more than safe in that regard.He did do well last year but I don't think it is too soon at all when you look at what Leclerc has done at Ferrari, Albon at Red Bull and also Norris at McLaren to an extent. Albon and Leclrec in particular are young lads who are in very high pressure seats and are getting it done. Russell seems to be (based on his junior career) a match for those guys having recently beaten Albon and Norris in F2 so it would be a massive surprise for all if he couldn't handle it at the front like they have.
I understand the building his race craft angle, but he can't be learning too much about race craft in a Williams well off the back of the pack. The only benefit to that is it will harden him up for tough times in the future when they eventually do come.
He is an GP3 and F2 champion with a cool head and I think he will surprise a lot of people with his speed and consistency when he gets a top car.
When Williams signed Russell it was a three year deal taking him through 2021 I believe.
Of course he could easily be released and Williams would have about six test and development drivers waiting in the wings to be overlooked in favour of a Mercedes young driver or wealthy hobbyist.
I was thinking the other day- Russell has been quietly brilliant hasn't he- have you ever known Russell to make a mistake?
Any Russell?
Of course he could easily be released and Williams would have about six test and development drivers waiting in the wings to be overlooked in favour of a Mercedes young driver or wealthy hobbyist.
I was thinking the other day- Russell has been quietly brilliant hasn't he- have you ever known Russell to make a mistake?
Any Russell?
Deesee said:
Will just need a bit more race craft, and tyre management IMO & he's not the quickest on the Williams Rig, thats Ticktum... I read yesterday that Lewis has been helping him with a few snippets & although it must be frustrating to see Leclerc battle for wins, and see Lando and Albon pick up points on a regular basis, he still needs to learn his craft.
Yes the test was good, and he was also quick (quickest) in the Pirelli Mule Car for the 2020 tyres 2 yrs back, he should get (as a young driver) one more year of testing for Merc, so they will be able to bench mark him further, as well as perhaps a private test in the W08/W09 this winter.
If the contract is indeed peanuts, then perhaps the right move will see him placed alongside Ocon in 2021, and a bit further further up the grid.
ThanksYes the test was good, and he was also quick (quickest) in the Pirelli Mule Car for the 2020 tyres 2 yrs back, he should get (as a young driver) one more year of testing for Merc, so they will be able to bench mark him further, as well as perhaps a private test in the W08/W09 this winter.
If the contract is indeed peanuts, then perhaps the right move will see him placed alongside Ocon in 2021, and a bit further further up the grid.
By the same standards - did Leclerc or Max prove more than George has done already when they got their top drive? I know Max showed great pace in his BRTR but then so has George in his Williams - making the obvious allowances!
TheDeuce said:
Deesee said:
Will just need a bit more race craft, and tyre management IMO & he's not the quickest on the Williams Rig, thats Ticktum... I read yesterday that Lewis has been helping him with a few snippets & although it must be frustrating to see Leclerc battle for wins, and see Lando and Albon pick up points on a regular basis, he still needs to learn his craft.
Yes the test was good, and he was also quick (quickest) in the Pirelli Mule Car for the 2020 tyres 2 yrs back, he should get (as a young driver) one more year of testing for Merc, so they will be able to bench mark him further, as well as perhaps a private test in the W08/W09 this winter.
If the contract is indeed peanuts, then perhaps the right move will see him placed alongside Ocon in 2021, and a bit further further up the grid.
ThanksYes the test was good, and he was also quick (quickest) in the Pirelli Mule Car for the 2020 tyres 2 yrs back, he should get (as a young driver) one more year of testing for Merc, so they will be able to bench mark him further, as well as perhaps a private test in the W08/W09 this winter.
If the contract is indeed peanuts, then perhaps the right move will see him placed alongside Ocon in 2021, and a bit further further up the grid.
By the same standards - did Leclerc or Max prove more than George has done already when they got their top drive? I know Max showed great pace in his BRTR but then so has George in his Williams - making the obvious allowances!
Russell IMO would win races in a Red Bull or Ferrari (& a Merc
).Max is starting to show the consistency required of being a class leading driver and this is his 5th/6th? Season.
CLC not consistent enough at present IMO, & there have been quicker drivers in the past with no WDC, too much too soon? & Sainz may be the surprise package once we get going, Mr consistent & relentless.
Deesee said:
TheDeuce said:
Deesee said:
Will just need a bit more race craft, and tyre management IMO & he's not the quickest on the Williams Rig, thats Ticktum... I read yesterday that Lewis has been helping him with a few snippets & although it must be frustrating to see Leclerc battle for wins, and see Lando and Albon pick up points on a regular basis, he still needs to learn his craft.
Yes the test was good, and he was also quick (quickest) in the Pirelli Mule Car for the 2020 tyres 2 yrs back, he should get (as a young driver) one more year of testing for Merc, so they will be able to bench mark him further, as well as perhaps a private test in the W08/W09 this winter.
If the contract is indeed peanuts, then perhaps the right move will see him placed alongside Ocon in 2021, and a bit further further up the grid.
ThanksYes the test was good, and he was also quick (quickest) in the Pirelli Mule Car for the 2020 tyres 2 yrs back, he should get (as a young driver) one more year of testing for Merc, so they will be able to bench mark him further, as well as perhaps a private test in the W08/W09 this winter.
If the contract is indeed peanuts, then perhaps the right move will see him placed alongside Ocon in 2021, and a bit further further up the grid.
By the same standards - did Leclerc or Max prove more than George has done already when they got their top drive? I know Max showed great pace in his BRTR but then so has George in his Williams - making the obvious allowances!
Russell IMO would win races in a Red Bull or Ferrari (& a Merc
).Max is starting to show the consistency required of being a class leading driver and this is his 5th/6th? Season.
CLC not consistent enough at present IMO, & there have been quicker drivers in the past with no WDC, too much too soon? & Sainz may be the surprise package once we get going, Mr consistent & relentless.
Or at least be seriously considered for it.
TheDeuce said:
On that basis GR should, if it's available, be given a top drive in 2021 then
Or at least be seriously considered for it.
Ok.. devils advocate.. no contracts.. Or at least be seriously considered for it.
Who are you taking out to give him the drive..
Lewis
Bottas
CLC
Sainz
Max
Albon
& why..
Edit.. hold on...
And why not would any of these potentially get the drive.
Dani Ric
Perez
Kmag
Ocon
Take Bottas out because he's probably more expensive than GR, he often falls asleep mid race and is never going to be a strong enough team leader for a top team. One day Hamilton isn't going to be there and Mercedes need to do what Ferrari and Red Bull have and give a young promising talent a run.
Deesee said:
TheDeuce said:
On that basis GR should, if it's available, be given a top drive in 2021 then
Or at least be seriously considered for it.
Ok.. devils advocate.. no contracts.. Or at least be seriously considered for it.
Who are you taking out to give him the drive..
Lewis
Bottas
CLC
Sainz
Max
Albon
& why..
I was only debating whether or not he was ready, not that anyone needs to go to make space just yet!
But if I had to answer.. I guess probably Sainz on the basis that he's the only one not already proven reasonably solid in a top car. Then it would be a toss up between Albon (who I think has more to give) and Bottas. I say 'would be' because in the real world I'd have to be window licking crazy to disrupt the Lewis & Bottas winning machine.
Yet Mercedes is the only obvious option he would have anytime soon due his contract - so I guess he stays put
janesmith1950 said:
Take Bottas out because he's probably more expensive than GR, he often falls asleep mid race and is never going to be a strong enough team leader for a top team. One day Hamilton isn't going to be there and Mercedes need to do what Ferrari and Red Bull have and give a young promising talent a run.
Probably true but right now it's potentially more important for them to finish the job with a proven and stable driver pairing than it is to worry about the future - they may well not desire a future once the seventh title is wrapped up. How can anything matter more urgently than that?HustleRussell said:
When Williams signed Russell it was a three year deal taking him through 2021 I believe.
Of course he could easily be released and Williams would have about six test and development drivers waiting in the wings to be overlooked in favour of a Mercedes young driver or wealthy hobbyist.
I was thinking the other day- Russell has been quietly brilliant hasn't he- have you ever known Russell to make a mistake?
Any Russell?
Russell really needs to be put in the 2nd Mercedes alongside Lewis. I would place Russell ahead of Ocon.Of course he could easily be released and Williams would have about six test and development drivers waiting in the wings to be overlooked in favour of a Mercedes young driver or wealthy hobbyist.
I was thinking the other day- Russell has been quietly brilliant hasn't he- have you ever known Russell to make a mistake?
Any Russell?
Bottas is not the future.
Deesee said:
If Merc put him in the 2021 car would that be too soon, I'd say so ....
I think sometimes drivers are made to wait too long before getting a top drive. Waiting can increase the pressure when the opportunity finally comes and some promising drivers seem to get used to the back-of-the-grid mindset and never really progress. And particularly with the way Williams are at the moment I'm not sure what benefit he's going to get from waiting.But he seems like a smart cookie and not many people win the feeder series at their first attempt so hopefully talent will out in the end.
Mr_Thyroid said:
Deesee said:
If Merc put him in the 2021 car would that be too soon, I'd say so ....
I think sometimes drivers are made to wait too long before getting a top drive. Waiting can increase the pressure when the opportunity finally comes and some promising drivers seem to get used to the back-of-the-grid mindset and never really progress. And particularly with the way Williams are at the moment I'm not sure what benefit he's going to get from waiting.But he seems like a smart cookie and not many people win the feeder series at their first attempt so hopefully talent will out in the end.
He’s doing a fine job, other drivers have started towards or at the back of the grid and won WDC/s.
He’s what 2/3rd youngest on the grid, of which half the grid will be less than 25 at the end of the season, time is on his hand.
It’s a shame about this season, we would have had 4 wet races now, and that could have been the leveller for (the car) him to have scored some points.
However you can promoted or hyped too soon and you could be lost forever like JEV or Kyvat.
OK, so this is filler:
https://www.gpblog.com/en/news/60078/minardi-there...
But it poses a Brawn like scenario.
Merc focus on engines
Toto does a management buyout (probably the best candidate to lead them forwards)
Then drivers - Hamilton exits to spend more time with his money, Vettel in.
Probably not, but just a thought. The car manufacturers are going to really hurt for the next few years, you can always return to being a factory team, you just pass the pain for a few years to another owner.
https://www.gpblog.com/en/news/60078/minardi-there...
But it poses a Brawn like scenario.
Merc focus on engines
Toto does a management buyout (probably the best candidate to lead them forwards)
Then drivers - Hamilton exits to spend more time with his money, Vettel in.
Probably not, but just a thought. The car manufacturers are going to really hurt for the next few years, you can always return to being a factory team, you just pass the pain for a few years to another owner.
vaud said:
Probably not, but just a thought. The car manufacturers are going to really hurt for the next few years, you can always return to being a factory team, you just pass the pain for a few years to another owner.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought the Mercedes F1 program made an overall profit for the parent company, even excluding the advertising it gives them? kambites said:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought the Mercedes F1 program made an overall profit for the parent company, even excluding the advertising it gives them?
I think it was either at or nearly at that point.But with the major upcoming changes their success rate and subsequent ease of attracting major sponsorship wouldn't be guaranteed. And then CV happened which will have lost them huge chunks of this season's sponsor income one way or the other.
It may be true that the team has achieved self sufficiency but as the above shows, F1 finances are fragile and the stakes very high. Even a self sufficient team remains a potential liability.
kambites said:
vaud said:
Probably not, but just a thought. The car manufacturers are going to really hurt for the next few years, you can always return to being a factory team, you just pass the pain for a few years to another owner.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought the Mercedes F1 program made an overall profit for the parent company, even excluding the advertising it gives them? thegreenhell said:
kambites said:
vaud said:
Probably not, but just a thought. The car manufacturers are going to really hurt for the next few years, you can always return to being a factory team, you just pass the pain for a few years to another owner.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought the Mercedes F1 program made an overall profit for the parent company, even excluding the advertising it gives them? 
Daimler issued 130m in preference shares in 2017, roughly 70/80 million was still outstanding to them
The power train business, Daimler paid themselves a 8 million dividend on the last set of filled accounts, and a loan of 40 million is outstanding.
Deesee said:
Mr_Thyroid said:
Deesee said:
If Merc put him in the 2021 car would that be too soon, I'd say so ....
I think sometimes drivers are made to wait too long before getting a top drive. Waiting can increase the pressure when the opportunity finally comes and some promising drivers seem to get used to the back-of-the-grid mindset and never really progress. And particularly with the way Williams are at the moment I'm not sure what benefit he's going to get from waiting.But he seems like a smart cookie and not many people win the feeder series at their first attempt so hopefully talent will out in the end.
He’s doing a fine job, other drivers have started towards or at the back of the grid and won WDC/s.
He’s what 2/3rd youngest on the grid, of which half the grid will be less than 25 at the end of the season, time is on his hand.
It’s a shame about this season, we would have had 4 wet races now, and that could have been the leveller for (the car) him to have scored some points.
However you can promoted or hyped too soon and you could be lost forever like JEV or Kyvat.
Without actually crunching the numbers, I can't see any trend either way. Hamilton, Prost, Senna, Mansell, Vettel, Alonso, Kimi and Schumacher were all in cars that were at least midfield and in some cases fast enough for them to win races in by season 2. Of those, Mansell and Kimi probably stand out as the ones who didn't achieve huge success on paper considering the cars they had. Maybe Hill could be added as one who got a top drive from day 1 and didn't do particularly well, but by the time he got into Formula 1 he was not only relatively old already, but he had far less experience racing cars than most of his peers had on their Formula 1 debut. Same could be said for Kimi, I think.
Button, Hakkinen, and Ricciardo had more years in slow or midfield teams before getting their break. All went on to success and Hakkinen in particular is considered a great driver, but ultimately his success in terms of results started late and finished quickly. I can't think of many multiple world champions who spent a lot of time at the start of their career circulating at the back. Those who stood out as good got a top drive pretty quickly.
Of course it's impossible to measure the what if careers for any of them. Would Hakkinen have been as strong in 1998/99 if he had started his career at Williams? Would it have ruined him?
Impossible to know, but I think that much of their prep has already happened by the time they hit F1.
To me it simply seems that, assuming the driver is good enough, the faster they find their way into a top car, the more success they will have in their career.
kiseca said:
Without actually crunching the numbers, I can't see any trend either way. Hamilton, Prost, Senna, Mansell, Vettel, Alonso, Kimi and Schumacher were all in cars that were at least midfield and in some cases fast enough for them to win races in by season 2. Of those, Mansell and Kimi probably stand out as the ones who didn't achieve huge success on paper considering the cars they had. Maybe Hill could be added as one who got a top drive from day 1 and didn't do particularly well, but by the time he got into Formula 1 he was not only relatively old already, but he had far less experience racing cars than most of his peers had on their Formula 1 debut. Same could be said for Kimi, I think.
Button, Hakkinen, and Ricciardo had more years in slow or midfield teams before getting their break. All went on to success and Hakkinen in particular is considered a great driver, but ultimately his success in terms of results started late and finished quickly. I can't think of many multiple world champions who spent a lot of time at the start of their career circulating at the back. Those who stood out as good got a top drive pretty quickly.
Hamilton was a bit of a freak, 9 podiums in first 9 races, changed the way we look a quick young drivers.Button, Hakkinen, and Ricciardo had more years in slow or midfield teams before getting their break. All went on to success and Hakkinen in particular is considered a great driver, but ultimately his success in terms of results started late and finished quickly. I can't think of many multiple world champions who spent a lot of time at the start of their career circulating at the back. Those who stood out as good got a top drive pretty quickly.
Prost, spent a year in the lower midfield, moved to Renault, had a car that was podium or retired.
Senna, spent a year that was lower midfield, took it to higher midfield, moved to a midfield team after a year.
Mansell, had a few years in the lower midfield.
Vettel, debut for BMW, moved to Torro Rosso spent season and half there, took a lower midfield/rear runner, to good points places by the end, did have a v10 engine though!
Alonso, A year at Minardi, then a whole year out as test driver for Renault....
Kimi, outperformed the Sauber, moved to complete for a WDC with McLaren was unlucky..
Schumacher, it took one qualifying session!
Button, went backwards in going to Benetton.
Nico, 4/5 seasons in the midfield.
Keke, Lauda all spent several years at the rear before moving up as did Mika at Lotus.
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