Official 2020 Austrian & Styrian Grand Prix Thread *Spoilers

[MikeyC]

Oooh ! - those nasty RB people (again?): "How Red Bull made the FIA give Hamilton a penalty" (nb: my emphasis)

Story here: https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/how-red-bull-go...

TL:DR - nothing particularly new .....

[TheDeuce]

Derek Smith said:

There was a reaction by the Tifosi to the sacking of Vettel and also by its manner.

I'm not too sure what Wolff meant by "I would like to cheer up everyone at Ferrari, because they are a fantastic company with fantastic people. But I have no reason to cheer up Mattia." When there was a discussion of the Ferrari engine 'problems' of last season he said something like 'this is about the way the team's managed.'

There were rumours of LH and TW going to Ferrari next season, although who might be taking whom isn't too clear. It seems to be getting a bit nasty, and comments suggesting the 'team' is great, but Binotto isn't are given for a reason. I wonder what this reason is.

Binotto's under pressure. I used to have a mate in Milan who sent me newspaper reports on Ferrari's performance after each race. Some ran to five pages. I wonder if this level of coverage continues. If so, then they, the media, were a significant voice to the company.

I'm sure there is a reason behind Toto's comments. It might not be career/business related though, it could simply be that he see's Binotto as disingenuous following the whole fuel flow thing. It could even be that he simply doesn't want to see Ferrari go off the rails because he does consider them crucial to F1, and the on-going value of F1.. And at very least he HAS to be nose out of joint over the bizarre closed doors Ferrari/FIA agreement.

Anyway, whatever the reason is, he's certainly done Binotto no favours and has effectively invited public debate as to whether or not he's the root cause of the problems (probably isn't as clean cut as that..). If the results from Ferrari remain poor and if others in addition to Toto do their bit to keep his name in the media in a negative way, then I can well imagine Ferrari getting restless. The CEO talking above Binotto in the media and announcing the decision to fast track upgrades - clearly contradicting Binotto's plan the day before - is also not good. It's the verbal equivalent of a horse's head in ones bed.

[Leithen]

Derek Smith said:

TheDeuce said:

Piginapoke said:

I can't think they would fire Binotto. He's sorted out the driver salary bill at the same time as delivering an upgrade in driving talent (sorry Vettel fans) and the culture is much more open compared to previously. He doesn't design the car!

I think if you have upgrades to use, you should use them in the second double header weekend- it's a brilliant back to back test if nothing else, and with testing so limited its a no brainer to bring them forward.

Identifying seb being in a viscous circle of self defeat and pointing to the door was probably a sensible move. He can't really take credit for LeClerc though, Arrivabene signed him.

He is responsible for making sure the car is designed to be competitive. That doesn't mean he has to be involved or even understand the car.. but he has to make sure the right people to deliver the result are on the job and getting strong results. And ideally, not cheating... As it is, it's looking the team are stuck this year and next with a car designed around power that in a cheat free world they can no longer have, and doesn't seem to adapt well to being a strong aero performer in order to offset the power drop. Let's see what Sunday brings with the new upgrades - I guess it's possible they'll work a miracle.

Toto has been uncharacteristically vocal about Binotto too: https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.essentiallysports...

There was a reaction by the Tifosi to the sacking of Vettel and also by its manner.

I'm not too sure what Wolff meant by "I would like to cheer up everyone at Ferrari, because they are a fantastic company with fantastic people. But I have no reason to cheer up Mattia." When there was a discussion of the Ferrari engine 'problems' of last season he said something like 'this is about the way the team's managed.'

There were rumours of LH and TW going to Ferrari next season, although who might be taking whom isn't too clear. It seems to be getting a bit nasty, and comments suggesting the 'team' is great, but Binotto isn't are given for a reason. I wonder what this reason is.

Binotto's under pressure. I used to have a mate in Milan who sent me newspaper reports on Ferrari's performance after each race. Some ran to five pages. I wonder if this level of coverage continues. If so, then they, the media, were a significant voice to the company.

Binotto is very much on the line. Ferrari is also a very different corporate beast from the 80/90's when abject failure was tolerated.

The deep irony here is that Wolff is who Ferrari need. Never going to happen, but a similarly ruthless smiling assassin is the only thing that can make Ferrari function properly. Remember how easily he shafted Brawn.

Whilst the corporate structure has changed the internal political nightmare continues at Maranello. Intermittently someone comes along and gets a grip of it, always followed by improved performance. Marchionne had the skills, as did Montezemolo and Todt.

Elkann (not the dodgy brother) had the nous to hire Marchionne to sort out the whole st show (Fiat Chrysler etc). A lot has gone on in the background since his passing (failed mergers etc) and I'm not sure there is anyone who counts as a heavyweight who is able to march into Modena and clear out the rabble.

It is hard to imagine perhaps, but I wouldn't be so surprised if Ferrari went hunting in other pastures in the not too distant future.

[TheDeuce]

SturdyHSV said:

TheDeuce said:

Two years of Ferrari floundering, and then we enter a budget limited ground effect era. That probably won't suit them either

It's OK, the budget cap won't apply to Ferrari as they have no way of accounting for what they spend on F1, so they should have an opportunity to be competitive again

They're good at finding 'opportunities' - the dick dasterdly's of F!

Joking aside... when the cost caps come in they will effectively have around £150m of their current budget unaccounted for, so they could use that to buy in a raft of serious F1 design talent (and a new TP.... Toto?), all of whose salaries can be legitimately excluded from the cap. That would have the potential to make them a force to be reckoned with...

In addition to that potential rosy future, I agree the actual policing of the cost caps is going to be a joke when it comes to Ferrari - so I suppose they really could be a very promising prospect 2022 onwards. Until then, I think they're basically stuck in rut. At least they have plenty of time to plan their resurgence.

[HTP99]

Derek Smith said:

I'm not too sure what Wolff meant by "I would like to cheer up everyone at Ferrari, because they are a fantastic company with fantastic people. But I have no reason to cheer up Mattia." When there was a discussion of the Ferrari engine 'problems' of last season he said something like 'this is about the way the team's managed.'

There were rumours of LH and TW going to Ferrari next season, although who might be taking whom isn't too clear. It seems to be getting a bit nasty, and comments suggesting the 'team' is great, but Binotto isn't are given for a reason. I wonder what this reason is.

To me, it says "I've respect for the Ferrari team but no respect for Mattia", due to the cheating, Mattia was in charge so would have sanctioned it.

[Derek Smith]

Thanks for the replies to my posts about Binotto.

I agree with those who say that Wolff bears a grudge against what he (and many others) see as cheating by him last season, and the FIA bottling it yet again.

Wolff's comments might be worth bearing in mind. 'Things' might develop.

[TheDeuce]

HTP99 said:

To me, it says "I've respect for the Ferrari team but no respect for Mattia", due to the cheating, Mattia was in charge so would have sanctioned it.

Or not been aware of it - which indirectly means he doesn't know what his team are doing. Take your pick Binotto - sounds like you don't come out of this one looking great either way..

With all the politics bouncing around that team it's entirely possible he is actually something of a victim in all this, got to be open minded about that possibility. However, he has the title and the responsibility, it will be him that gets thrown under a bus if Ferrari are minded to do some housekeeping.

[Leithen]

TheDeuce said:

HTP99 said:

To me, it says "I've respect for the Ferrari team but no respect for Mattia", due to the cheating, Mattia was in charge so would have sanctioned it.

Or not been aware of it - which indirectly means he doesn't know what his team are doing. Take your pick Binotto - sounds like you don't come out of this one looking great either way..

With all the politics bouncing around that team it's entirely possible he is actually something of a victim in all this, got to be open minded about that possibility. However, he has the title and the responsibility, it will be him that gets thrown under a bus if Ferrari are minded to do some housekeeping.

Historically there has been tension between the engine and chassis departments. No room for that now. I'd be astonished if Binotto didn't know the full details of the powertrain.

As for Wolff's comments - it's the piranha club. There will be a whole level of layers that we know nothing about that factor in to this. Bluntly however, anything he can do to undermine Ferrari works for Mercedes.

I wouldn't trust any of the F1 team principles to not sell my Grandmother from beside me when I had my back turned...

[Mr Pointy]

I may have got hold of the wrong end of the stick but wasn't one of the Sky interviews with Toto & Kallenuis, the new head of Mercedes, sat on two chairs way apart & the interviewer said something along the lines of "you two don't like each other"? If that's the case then might Toto leave when his contract is up & rock up at Ferrari with Hamilton in tow? If Toto had enough power & authority that would be a show worth watching. Where's the head of HPP going now he's resigned?

All wild speculation of course, but it would be something if the three of them turned up at Maranello.

[Derek Smith]

Mr Pointy said:

I may have got hold of the wrong end of the stick but wasn't one of the Sky interviews with Toto & Kallenuis, the new head of Mercedes, sat on two chairs way apart & the interviewer said something along the lines of "you two don't like each other"? If that's the case then might Toto leave when his contract is up & rock up at Ferrari with Hamilton in tow? If Toto had enough power & authority that would be a show worth watching. Where's the head of HPP going now he's resigned?

All wild speculation of course, but it would be something if the three of them turned up at Maranello.

There are lots of such rumours, almost all without foundation, but my belief is that's no reason not to discuss the possibility.

Wolff and Hamilton - how much would that cost Ferrari? They can afford it of course. There are a few skilled engineers, designers and others who would go for that. I wonder if a certain aerodynamacist at RB might like a change of scenery?

I hope not. We don't want a repeat of the Brawn days.

[HTP99]

Mr Pointy said:

I may have got hold of the wrong end of the stick but wasn't one of the Sky interviews with Toto & Kallenuis, the new head of Mercedes, sat on two chairs way apart & the interviewer said something along the lines of "you two don't like each other"? If that's the case then might Toto leave when his contract is up & rock up at Ferrari with Hamilton in tow? If Toto had enough power & authority that would be a show worth watching. Where's the head of HPP going now he's resigned?

All wild speculation of course, but it would be something if the three of them turned up at Maranello.

Thing is re Hamilton going to Ferrari with Toto, I just can't see it working with timings and Hamiltons age, I doubt it would happen next year, I suppose it could but then what do they do with both Sainz and LeClerc; turf one out, who, it would just seem totally ruthless and likely finish one of their careers off.

2022, Hamilton would be 37, it would be a couple of years minimum before Ferrari had made any meaningful progress by then Hamilton would be 39.

I just can't see it.

[HustleRussell]

DanielSan said:

I can already see it now, bolt a whole st load of parts onto the car, wonder why the setup/balance is all to cock and have no idea why because they're replaced so many bits in one go.

There is no rescuing this season, however due to the delay of the 2021 regs they now have to make the car work for next season. I bet the Ferrari squad isn't a happy place to be at the moment.

With regard to the PU- surely if you're going to flirt with the regs in certain areas you have a compliance fix ready to go which won't make you a second slower? You develop a PU and a compliant version in parallel? Ferrari don't seem to have been very quick to claw back that performance they lost 10 months ago

I wonder if we'll see them using Seb's car to test a whole raft of PU upgrades through the season at the expense of his starting positions...

[TheDeuce]

Derek Smith said:

There are lots of such rumours, almost all without foundation, but my belief is that's no reason not to discuss the possibility.

Wolff and Hamilton - how much would that cost Ferrari? They can afford it of course. There are a few skilled engineers, designers and others who would go for that. I wonder if a certain aerodynamacist at RB might like a change of scenery?

I hope not. We don't want a repeat of the Brawn days.

What about a certain Power unit expert that will soon be on the market...

Talent is available to Ferrari and with the cost caps coming in, they can most certainly afford as much talent as they can convince to join.

The major caveat is that none of that talent is going to go anywhere near Ferrari unless they can be convinced they'll be left in peace to do their jobs, even if some of what they do leaves the Ferrari board frowning.

[HustleRussell]

kambites said:

HustleRussell said:

Red Bull could be a match for Mercedes on race pace at most circuits.

I'm intereted in your logic for that one. As far as I could see Redbull were nowhere near Mercedes on race pace last weekend - the Mercs were running wounded and without the safety cars would still have been about half a lap down the road by the end of the race.

Yes I was suggesting that this isn't necessarily a Red Bull circuit... I know it's 'The Red Bull Ring" and the team has good form there but despite Mercedes' qualifying pace advantage I hope that Red Bull with attacking strategies might be able to run Mercedes close elsewhere.

I'm not sure I'd necessarily predict a Mercedes pole for Hungary...

[TheDeuce]

HustleRussell said:

With regard to the PU- surely if you're going to flirt with the regs in certain areas you have a compliance fix ready to go which won't make you a second slower? You develop a PU and a compliant version in parallel? Ferrari don't seem to have been very quick to claw back that performance they lost 10 months ago

You would think they could afford a compliance fix to fall back on, seems a no brainer as the alternative would be to risk throwing away several races between getting found out and developing one.

However, it is possible that the FIA rule tightening to make the cheat impossible, in some way also nobbled whatever Ferrari were hoping to fall back upon. Or maybe in order to make the cheat possible and undetectable, there is some baked in features of the PU design that are now problematic. In the end, Ferrari definitely made their own bed.. Just a shame that they tucked HAAS and Alfa up in it too.

[DanielSan]

HustleRussell said:

There is no rescuing this season, however due to the delay of the 2021 regs they now have to make the car work for next season. I bet the Ferrari squad isn't a happy place to be at the moment.

With regard to the PU- surely if you're going to flirt with the regs in certain areas you have a compliance fix ready to go which won't make you a second slower? You develop a PU and a compliant version in parallel? Ferrari don't seem to have been very quick to claw back that performance they lost 10 months ago

I wonder if we'll see them using Seb's car to test a whole raft of PU upgrades through the season at the expense of his starting positions...

Given the sheer arrogance of Ferrari as a whole I can honestly see them just thinking that their work around the regs was completely legal and would never be found to be anything else so they wouldn't need an alternative.

The fact that the punishment/not a punishment has been kept completely secret is still beyond a joke. It's the sort of arrangement that proves F1 wouldn't be worse without Ferrari on the grid. It'd be a damn site better.

[PanicBuyingBogRoll]

HustleRussell said:

kambites said:

HustleRussell said:

Red Bull could be a match for Mercedes on race pace at most circuits.

I'm intereted in your logic for that one. As far as I could see Redbull were nowhere near Mercedes on race pace last weekend - the Mercs were running wounded and without the safety cars would still have been about half a lap down the road by the end of the race.

Yes I was suggesting that this isn't necessarily a Red Bull circuit... I know it's 'The Red Bull Ring" and the team has good form there but despite Mercedes' qualifying pace advantage I hope that Red Bull with attacking strategies might be able to run Mercedes close elsewhere.

I'm not sure I'd necessarily predict a Mercedes pole for Hungary...

Without the Safety cars on Sunday Redbull would have been nowhere near the Mercedes.

If Mercedes fix their gearbox sensor issue and the race is clean, they will dissappear off into the distance on Sunday. Mercedes will also now know they can get through Q2 on the mediums. So that is Redbulls strategy advantage gone.

Rain on Saturday or Sunday could certainly make it more interesting.

[ajprice]

Is the tyre to start a race on a free choice if it's a wet qualifying?

[ajprice]

Future pub quiz question

[A205GTI]

I think they have missed a trick with dual tracks,

2nd race should be opposite way around track, that certainly would be interesting seeing them all have to relearn braking areas etc,,,