Official 2020 Austrian & Styrian Grand Prix Thread *Spoilers

Official 2020 Austrian & Styrian Grand Prix Thread *Spoilers

Author
Discussion

TheDeuce

5,621 posts

21 months

Wednesday 10th June
quotequote all
sparta6 said:
Swampy1982 said:
Did anything more come from the controversial joint press release from the fia and ferrari? All seems to have been swept under the carpet. I wonder if more will come to light now racing is due to kick off again...
Unfortunately Liberty have more pressing concerns to focus on rather than continued Mercedes dominance and flawed Ferrari tricks trying to catch up.

2020 will be a bit scrambled egg.
I guess also, if the Ferrari cars this year really are off the pace to degree Ferrari suggest - then that will take a lot of energy out of the debate. At least everyone else would know that the FIA intervention was effective, even if not fair or transparent. If 2020 proves to be the least impressive year of the current era for Ferrari, that in itself is a public punishment.

I still think the whole thing is as shady as hell!! But it does sound like Ferrari may be about to reap the results of spending time trying to cheat rather than compete with Mercedes in a clean and fair fight. The embarrassing thing for Ferrari is that they actually do have a Mercedes sized F1 budget, and several other advantages, yet they STILL lose even when resorting to cheating, or at very least bending the rules in to a new shape. At some point you would think they'd reflect upon that and try a different tactic confused

Leithen

6,254 posts

222 months

Thursday 11th June
quotequote all
TheDeuce said:
sparta6 said:
Swampy1982 said:
Did anything more come from the controversial joint press release from the fia and ferrari? All seems to have been swept under the carpet. I wonder if more will come to light now racing is due to kick off again...
Unfortunately Liberty have more pressing concerns to focus on rather than continued Mercedes dominance and flawed Ferrari tricks trying to catch up.

2020 will be a bit scrambled egg.
I guess also, if the Ferrari cars this year really are off the pace to degree Ferrari suggest - then that will take a lot of energy out of the debate. At least everyone else would know that the FIA intervention was effective, even if not fair or transparent. If 2020 proves to be the least impressive year of the current era for Ferrari, that in itself is a public punishment.

I still think the whole thing is as shady as hell!! But it does sound like Ferrari may be about to reap the results of spending time trying to cheat rather than compete with Mercedes in a clean and fair fight. The embarrassing thing for Ferrari is that they actually do have a Mercedes sized F1 budget, and several other advantages, yet they STILL lose even when resorting to cheating, or at very least bending the rules in to a new shape. At some point you would think they'd reflect upon that and try a different tactic confused
A cursory glance at the history of F1 would confirm that there have always been many different shades of grey, guaranteed to be operated by all teams at all times. Just try not to get caught with your hand in the cookie jar.

Horner et all may continue to bleat about demanding the full investigation data, but they of course know that it will never be forthcoming as it would require full dissemination and disclosure of Ferrari's engine design and software. About as unlikely as Newey ever handing over full CAD drawings for his chassis to any competitor. Still it makes good press and diverts any attention from their own Pantone 7544. wink

TheDeuce

5,621 posts

21 months

Thursday 11th June
quotequote all
Leithen said:
A cursory glance at the history of F1 would confirm that there have always been many different shades of grey, guaranteed to be operated by all teams at all times. Just try not to get caught with your hand in the cookie jar.

Horner et all may continue to bleat about demanding the full investigation data, but they of course know that it will never be forthcoming as it would require full dissemination and disclosure of Ferrari's engine design and software. About as unlikely as Newey ever handing over full CAD drawings for his chassis to any competitor. Still it makes good press and diverts any attention from their own Pantone 7544. wink
Quite right too - racers are supposed to be a little gittish biggrin

In this instance though, Ferrari must have surrendered something of value to the FIA in return for the soft serve - closed doors deal. One way or the other, it seems the extra power has vanished. I'd guess that in the end Ferrari gave the FIA all they needed to make it impossible for them or anyone else to use the same trick again.

Net result: No more special Ferrari power since then, and as their car still appears to handle 'sub optimum', then a stty 2020 car is their effective punishment. Horner will be smug - he knows no other way.

Leithen

6,254 posts

222 months

Thursday 11th June
quotequote all
TheDeuce said:
Quite right too - racers are supposed to be a little gittish biggrin

In this instance though, Ferrari must have surrendered something of value to the FIA in return for the soft serve - closed doors deal. One way or the other, it seems the extra power has vanished. I'd guess that in the end Ferrari gave the FIA all they needed to make it impossible for them or anyone else to use the same trick again.

Net result: No more special Ferrari power since then, and as their car still appears to handle 'sub optimum', then a stty 2020 car is their effective punishment. Horner will be smug - he knows no other way.
I think Vettel knows full well that the car is a bit of a dog, making his decision easier. Not sure where the surprises will come over this limited season - Red Bull needs to be competitive. It will be great to see some racing again, but will we see any racing?

TheDeuce

5,621 posts

21 months

Thursday 11th June
quotequote all
Leithen said:
I think Vettel knows full well that the car is a bit of a dog, making his decision easier. Not sure where the surprises will come over this limited season - Red Bull needs to be competitive. It will be great to see some racing again, but will we see any racing?
Red bull were strong enough to worry Ferrari a little last year. If the Ferrari this year has issues and/or the red bull has taken a tangible step forward, then there should be a decent battle to be had there. A battle for second, as I can't see either taking a battle to Mercedes for the title.


Deesee

3,941 posts

38 months

Thursday 11th June
quotequote all
I know its been a long time, but these are actually 2020 cars not 2019.. they are very different.

If pre season tells us anything and yes it would have been 4/5 months since it would have run, but Ferrari are not running a high power (ahem), low drag philosophy. Merc have worked even harder in the slower corners and added the DAS, Red Bull have made the car seemingly a match for Ferrari with notable gains in aero.

McLaren and Pink Mercs also made some notable gains in cornering speeds, which should have them at the front of the midfield.

Merc should be in a class of there own..

HustleRussell

17,898 posts

115 months

Thursday 11th June
quotequote all
Swampy1982 said:
Did anything more come from the controversial joint press release from the fia and ferrari? All seems to have been swept under the carpet. I wonder if more will come to light now racing is due to kick off again...
Scores of small additions to the technical regs concerning MGU-K output, oil burn and fuel flow among other things. It seems to have been widely accepted that these are outcomes from the FIA Ferrari investigation.

The new oil burn limit is something like 0.1L / 100km which is lower than most new Audi road cars.

TheDeuce

5,621 posts

21 months

Thursday 11th June
quotequote all
Deesee said:
I know its been a long time, but these are actually 2020 cars not 2019.. they are very different.

If pre season tells us anything and yes it would have been 4/5 months since it would have run, but Ferrari are not running a high power (ahem), low drag philosophy. Merc have worked even harder in the slower corners and added the DAS, Red Bull have made the car seemingly a match for Ferrari with notable gains in aero.

McLaren and Pink Mercs also made some notable gains in cornering speeds, which should have them at the front of the midfield.

Merc should be in a class of there own..
Thems the stories I'm looking forward to seeing play out.

- will RB push Ferrari down to 3rd in WCC?

- will McLaren and racing point be the new battle for 4th, with Renault stuck with what does look like basically a very lightly evolved version of their less than impressive 2019 car.

Battle for second, battle for fourth. That's the drama for me.

Oh, and mildly interested to see if Williams can battle for anything with anyone this season. Although I'm not expecting much.

Deesee

3,941 posts

38 months

Thursday 11th June
quotequote all
TheDeuce said:
Thems the stories I'm looking forward to seeing play out.

- will RB push Ferrari down to 3rd in WCC?

- will McLaren and racing point be the new battle for 4th, with Renault stuck with what does look like basically a very lightly evolved version of their less than impressive 2019 car.

Battle for second, battle for fourth. That's the drama for me.

Oh, and mildly interested to see if Williams can battle for anything with anyone this season. Although I'm not expecting much.
Red Bull yes I think they will, engine parts might play a big part in this though, less to use so tactical grid penalties will hurt Max and Alex..

Mclaren Vs Racing Point, Im calling Lando to finish top driver in this battle of four..

Renault and Williams, Russell vs Ocon at the back would be a little interesting...

andburg

3,752 posts

124 months

Thursday 11th June
quotequote all
I think we'll see HAAS / williams fighting it out at the back. Its all going to be track dependant and the Austrian GP was not a happy hunting ground for HAAS last year,

16
R. Grosjean
Haas·#8
+1 Lap 0 17
D. Kvyat
Toro Rosso·#26
+1 Lap 0 18
G. Russell
Williams·#63
+2 Laps 0 19
K. Magnussen
Haas·#20
+2 Laps 0 20
R. Kubica

If the williams has indeed picked up about a second a lap that real danger zone here for HAAS.

I dont really buy the big gap between merc and RBR/Ferrari, bare in mind they will know by now what wasn't working and likely sorted it.

TheDeuce

5,621 posts

21 months

Thursday 11th June
quotequote all
andburg said:
I dont really buy the big gap between merc and RBR/Ferrari, bare in mind they will know by now what wasn't working and likely sorted it.
No one has said there will be a big gap - but I do think there will be a fairly consistent gap in Mercedes favour. In the end, all evidence suggests that for whatever reason, Ferrari aren't as efficient at turning ££££ spent in to pace as Mercedes are. Some tracks will suit Ferrari better perhaps, but then there is the perennial problem with Ferrari's bizarre strategy decisions and inner team battles to factor in too.

Bare in mind too that Ferrari haven't had any real time to sort whatever they weren't happy about with this years car. In fact with their own factory lockdown due to Italy lockdown, followed by the extended F1 shutdown, they haven't had anymore factory time to fix anything than they normally would between the end of pre-season testing and the first GP.


HustleRussell

17,898 posts

115 months

Thursday 11th June
quotequote all
TheDeuce said:
Bare in mind too that Ferrari haven't had any real time to sort whatever they weren't happy about with this years car. In fact with their own factory lockdown due to Italy lockdown, followed by the extended F1 shutdown, they haven't had anymore factory time to fix anything than they normally would between the end of pre-season testing and the first GP.
Is that a fact...

TheDeuce

5,621 posts

21 months

Thursday 11th June
quotequote all
HustleRussell said:
TheDeuce said:
Bare in mind too that Ferrari haven't had any real time to sort whatever they weren't happy about with this years car. In fact with their own factory lockdown due to Italy lockdown, followed by the extended F1 shutdown, they haven't had anymore factory time to fix anything than they normally would between the end of pre-season testing and the first GP.
Is that a fact...
Well.. It's Ferrari so... It's a fact that it's another rule to be ignored smile

They did shut down their entire factory, road and race divisions at the start of the period at least. That's not to say that since then some engineers and designers haven't wandered in to the restricted F1 area and accidentally improved part of the car..

Either way, still very much doubt a significant improvement sufficient to bother Mercedes. I'm expecting and hoping for a Ferrari vs RB story this season.

Leithen

6,254 posts

222 months

Thursday 11th June
quotequote all
TheDeuce said:
Bare in mind too that Ferrari haven't had any real time to sort whatever they weren't happy about with this years car. In fact with their own factory lockdown due to Italy lockdown, followed by the extended F1 shutdown, they haven't had anymore factory time to fix anything than they normally would between the end of pre-season testing and the first GP.
IIRC the area around the factory was hit badly by COVID - given the several-generations-in-one-household culture, it's likely that many of the team will have lost relatives. I suspect Ferrari will be very subdued this year.

BrettMRC

1,503 posts

115 months

Thursday 11th June
quotequote all
TheDeuce said:
That's not to say that since then some engineers and designers haven't wandered in to the restricted F1 area and accidentally improved part of the car..
Well, they've had zero output when it's done intentionally, so accidentally is worth a go! hehe

TheDeuce

5,621 posts

21 months

Thursday 11th June
quotequote all
Leithen said:
TheDeuce said:
Bare in mind too that Ferrari haven't had any real time to sort whatever they weren't happy about with this years car. In fact with their own factory lockdown due to Italy lockdown, followed by the extended F1 shutdown, they haven't had anymore factory time to fix anything than they normally would between the end of pre-season testing and the first GP.
IIRC the area around the factory was hit badly by COVID - given the several-generations-in-one-household culture, it's likely that many of the team will have lost relatives. I suspect Ferrari will be very subdued this year.
Indeed, I can't recall if it was hit 'badly' or just earlier than most of the rest of Italy tbh - and aside from the obvious sadness of that aspect, it did also shut them down ahead of most other teams shutting down due to government instruction and/or the early and extended official F1 summer break.

Even before they shut down, Ferrari had split their travelling F1 team to make it possible for testing to take place in Barcelona and also to get the other half over to Melbourne allowing for the potential incoming quarantine requirements etc. They started with a car they weren't happy with and have had a very strenuous time of it since then for sure.

I don't think they were ever going to have a good season this year, regardless. But I certainly won't be gloating about the subsequent misfortune inflicted upon them.

HustleRussell

17,898 posts

115 months

Thursday 11th June
quotequote all
TheDeuce said:
HustleRussell said:
TheDeuce said:
Bare in mind too that Ferrari haven't had any real time to sort whatever they weren't happy about with this years car. In fact with their own factory lockdown due to Italy lockdown, followed by the extended F1 shutdown, they haven't had anymore factory time to fix anything than they normally would between the end of pre-season testing and the first GP.
Is that a fact...
Well.. It's Ferrari so... It's a fact that it's another rule to be ignored smile

They did shut down their entire factory, road and race divisions at the start of the period at least.
Well forgive me if I don't allow your opinion to supersede material fact.

There was to be a 2-week break between pre-season testing and the first round in Australia.

You have forgotten our discussion yesterday?

HustleRussell said:
TheDeuce said:
NRS said:
How much development have teams been able to do since testing, is it an extra few months for development, or has most of that time been none allowed due to Covid?
Nothing officially - although that doesn't mean that smart minds haven't been thinking through their pre-season testing results and planning what they can do/change in prep for this GP.
? The enforced mid-season 'summer break' was brought forward to March and eventually extended to 63 days. No work permitted by the race teams during this period. The power unit developers had a similar enforced closure.

Outside of this enforced closure period I expect the teams will have been developing their car, however there is probably only so much they could've achieved in the absence of continuous in-season running.

Some of the teams also furloughed some of their staff so this is another variable.
There will be an 18-week gap between pre-season testing and the eventual first round, of which 9 weeks was official enforced stoppage.

TheDeuce

5,621 posts

21 months

Thursday 11th June
quotequote all
HustleRussell said:
TheDeuce said:
HustleRussell said:
TheDeuce said:
Bare in mind too that Ferrari haven't had any real time to sort whatever they weren't happy about with this years car. In fact with their own factory lockdown due to Italy lockdown, followed by the extended F1 shutdown, they haven't had anymore factory time to fix anything than they normally would between the end of pre-season testing and the first GP.
Is that a fact...
Well.. It's Ferrari so... It's a fact that it's another rule to be ignored smile

They did shut down their entire factory, road and race divisions at the start of the period at least.
Well forgive me if I don't allow your opinion to supersede material fact.

There was to be a 2-week break between pre-season testing and the first round in Australia.

You have forgotten our discussion yesterday?

HustleRussell said:
TheDeuce said:
NRS said:
How much development have teams been able to do since testing, is it an extra few months for development, or has most of that time been none allowed due to Covid?
Nothing officially - although that doesn't mean that smart minds haven't been thinking through their pre-season testing results and planning what they can do/change in prep for this GP.
? The enforced mid-season 'summer break' was brought forward to March and eventually extended to 63 days. No work permitted by the race teams during this period. The power unit developers had a similar enforced closure.

Outside of this enforced closure period I expect the teams will have been developing their car, however there is probably only so much they could've achieved in the absence of continuous in-season running.

Some of the teams also furloughed some of their staff so this is another variable.
There will be an 18-week gap between pre-season testing and the eventual first round, of which 9 weeks was official enforced stoppage.
We're not actually disagreeing so far as I can make out. With regards to Ferrari specifically, in addition to 9 weeks enforced shut down they shut down far earlier because of State restrictions on working in Italy. So overall I don't think they have had much longer than usual. Perhaps 2 extra weeks but still less than their competitors I think.

I accept I was wrong to say they 'haven't had anymore time than usual', they probably have. My point was that they have had less than others and that what they have had has been particularly fraught as they were already having to split their team ahead of any lock-down as a precaution to enable them to travel. They've caught a particularly rough deal due to Covid hitting Italy in a big way early on.

Swampy1982

2,269 posts

66 months

Thursday 11th June
quotequote all
Also, musing before the first race, I wonder if a shortened season will delay Lewis' retirement. I always imagined that as a racing driver his target would be to beat MS's all time race victory record and by some fag packet calculations that was possible by the end of next season.

With 8 potential races this season, and perhaps less next season too i wonder if he will tag one more onto the end of his plan.

Zoobeef

4,923 posts

113 months

Thursday 11th June
quotequote all
Swampy1982 said:
Also, musing before the first race, I wonder if a shortened season will delay Lewis' retirement. I always imagined that as a racing driver his target would be to beat MS's all time race victory record and by some fag packet calculations that was possible by the end of next season.

With 8 potential races this season, and perhaps less next season too i wonder if he will tag one more onto the end of his plan.
Its looking to be a 16 race season this year not 8.