Black Mercedes.

[TheDeuce]

otolith said:

So we have some people saying that they are wrong to get involved in making the world a better place because their only legitimate function is to make money, and others saying that their apparent attempt to make the world better is wrong because it's really about selling cars?

Can't people just be honest and say they're big fans of racism?

I don't think it's racism so much as people seeking to prove how wise they are by pointing out the 'hidden truths' behind Mercedes positive action. Entirely missing the point that action now is better than no action now, regardless of what motivates that action or what has happened in the past.

The net result is that Mercedes have people thinking about an important issue and are publicly launching an initiative to examine their own equality imbalance and how to address it. If they can make an extra billion at the same time, fine - that's their primary purpose and that is correct.

[TheDeuce]

Piginapoke said:

TheDeuce said:

I don't think it's racism so much as people seeking to prove how wise they are by pointing out the 'hidden truths' behind Mercedes positive action. Entirely missing the point that action now is better than no action now, regardless of what motivates that action or what has happened in the past.

The net result is that Mercedes have people thinking about an important issue and are publicly launching an initiative to examine their own equality imbalance and how to address it. If they can make an extra billion at the same time, fine - that's their primary purpose and that is correct.

You're right Deuce, not finding Merc's actions authentic is not the same as being racist. I raise an eyebrow that Merc has publicly taken up this issue so vigorously whilst not having privately been sufficiently interested until now to address its own internal failings.

We should all raise an eyebrow to an extent - it's a healthy way to cope with the corporate BS thrown at us all each day! But it's STILL better to see progress now than no progress.

As regards Mercedes internal failings - we have to wait and see what their initiative turns up. It could be that there are no blocks to anyone entering their workforce, and that the limiting factors that cause less black people to apply in the first place are further down the road, education/vocation choices etc.. All they have said they will do is explore why the imbalance exists and address anything they find that they can improve. Along with the symbol of the black car, which as a talking point could well attract more talent to the team, that for whatever reasons may have the team wasn't fully open to them in the past. The car is the advert, the work behind the scenes might yield some real value and insight though.

[TheDeuce]

I started this thread... And I'm sad at how it's ended up. We seem to have posters trying to outdo one another for who can be 'the least racist and most aware' by picking holes in one another's posts to the most ludicrous degree.

I very nearly reported my own OP for removal, but I hesitated because honestly, what is a mod supposed to do with that request? Deletion of such threads these days is seen as sweeping an issue under the rug...

This thread must continue... But I'd love it if people could be a little more reasonable and balanced in their exchanges. A person that disagrees with you is most likely welcoming a debate, not starting a fight or questioning your virtuousness..

[TheDeuce]

jimothyc said:

The incoming cost caps are going to inevitably lead to a reduction in head count at most of the teams and nowhere more so than Mercedes. In a performance driven pursuit like F1 there's not going to be scope to carry any fat at all. Every single person in the team is going to have to be the absolute best at what they do. I doubt they will want to be carrying apprentices or inexperienced staff, everyone will need to have demonstrable experience and an impeccable track record.

There isn't a ready pool of applicants available for them to recruit. You don't win F1 titles by hiring the most diverse team, you hire the most talented and experienced.

If Mercedes are serious about improving diversity, they're going to have to start with education programmes at secondary school level to try and drive more minorities into engineering degrees. They are then going to have to follow this up with investment into other forms of motor sport where these graduates can cut their teeth before they can even consider hiring them.

This is going to take a lot of investment over a long period of time. Considering there were questions asked over Mercedes long term commitment to F1 this year. I'm not sure we'll ever get to see the fruits of this endeavour. Ultimately I fear this is nothing more than a marketing exercise.

Lewis did say before the race that the initiative was about education and it will take a long time to impact diversity within the team.

The Mercedes initiative is about asking questions about 'why' certain groups are underrepresented. O think it's highly likely that the answer will largely prove to be education and career choices ahead of Mercedes actually choosing who to hire. So yes, I think it's likely an education initiative could result... Of course it may simply be that certain groups, for whatever reason, are simply less inclined to apply themselves to subjects that could later lead them to an F1 career. Sometimes when you find a problem, you realise it's not actually a 'problem' as such, and there is nothing to fix. But it's worth asking the questions in the first place anyway.

[TheDeuce]

angrymoby said:

pquinn said:

The question shouldn't be why are they doing this now, it's why some people weren't doing this 10 or more years ago if (apparently) they've known about this problem for so long.

Bandwagon jumping and throwing words about is easy, doing practical things because you made your own choice is much more valuable.

isn't that a rather convenient way of doing nothing about anything?

Yes! In politics and corporations it's always a bad time to do anything so long as nothing is a viaible option.. the current mood means that doing nothing is suddenly not so viable.

[TheDeuce]

Kraken said:

Not really. You can't just say one day that discrimination no longer exists (we're a long way from that day by the way) and then expect everything to be equal from that day.

When the budgets caps come into F1 do you expect every team to have exactly the same chance of winning every GP? Of course not because some teams have had the lions share of the money for decades.

It's the same with discrimination. You could say it's all equal today so two new born babies, one a minority and one white, now have equal opportunity but of course they don't because one set of parents had far more opportunity than the other for their lifetimes.

True equality takes generations once the playing field has been levelled. It's one reason why positive discrimination exists in some areas to speed up that process.

That's all very sensible, yet I'm still not sure positive discrimination to artificially compensate and correct the effects of from past wrongs is the way forward. By your point, that in itself sets in place a new culture of discrimination that would also likely continue in its effects after the initial imbalance has been restored.

[TheDeuce]

Exige77 said:

Just look at the BBC

Working on shows for the BBC is at times a very limiting experience compared to other channels/networks. As a publicly funded organisation the BBC have to try and keep so many people happy that an obscene number of boxes have to be ticked - with often slightly contrived results.

There is a healthy balance and I think they overstep it quite often.. But then what choice do they have these days? Everyone has a view on everything, and the 'unique way the BBC are funded' means they're held to account more than any of their competitors. There's not really an answer to that problem - they were created and committed to their charter in very different times to those we live in today.

Sorry for going OT, but I do think the BBC are an interesting case of potential over compensation.

[TheDeuce]

Kraken said:

Not sure that comparing the fashion industry to the motorsport industry really works. If you're a good looking person of the right build and height you've probably got a good chance of getting a modelling gig if you knock on a few doors. Worst case scenario you'll have to pay a couple of hundred for portfolio shots.

Now try that as a kid who's dreaming of being F1 champion. Most will probably laugh in your face. Those that don't will ask you to come back when you've won a few kart titles. Now where do you get the six figures from to do that these days? Then if you do manage that part somehow they will then want another six figures per season to run you in F3 etc.

Also there is a niche of fashion that appeals to every niche of society... It's very much a self balancing thing. Although obviously I would agree that certain black models have broken through in to areas of fashion that were previously underrepresented - but that to me suggests lazy familiarity with what worked historically when selecting who to send down the runway, not active discrimination with racial motivations behind it. That is another example of lingering effects of less equal times for sure.. but also another example of what has now been corrected.

When I'm not doing fatuous work for TV I do a lot for fashion too, all on technical basis - nothing to do with talent. I would say that BAME representation in terms of models is sky high now, the newer generations of fashion shoppers want to look urban and real and representative of... just about everything. If you break down the % ratios of different cultures in our society, I would say that you will find a near perfect representation in he fashion industry, at least so far as the talent we see. Behind the scenes...? On the artistic/creative side (choreography, hair, make-up, set/scenic design, clothes designers and and producers) you see the same healthy balance. On the technical side of putting the productions together, as with the technical side of F1, there is an apparent BAME imbalance.

It could simply be that the primary root cause for this imbalance in technical job roles vs more creative/artistic/presentation roles, is actually to do with the roots of different cultures. If we're seeking to examine how early education and cultural socialising might influence a persons future career - we should also be mindful that several hundred generations of life, breeding, experience when cultures were physically split by geography will also inevitably be a significant factor in the career preference of different groups. It will effect to a degree a persons personality, interests, and strengths in certain areas. Not any one particular person of course, but there are going to be trends across different cultural backgrounds that overall stand distinct of one another.

EDIT: My point being that each time an imbalance is identified, it's probably as likely that its a result of differences across cultures that should be celebrated as it proof of systemic racism at play. Some things may need to be fixed still, but many examples probably shouldn't be 'fixed'.

Edited by TheDeuce on Wednesday 8th July 10:32