(T)Racing Point
Discussion
jsf said:
TheDeuce said:
You're right. Doesn't change the fact the fine seems a bit lightweight and that bizarrely they can (for now) continue to use the parts involved and face no further penalty.
Quite the oposite, the fact they have been fined is absurd. I hope RP apeal or kick off multiple protests against other teams. Haas would be a prime target if you wanted to go against a team using the primary designer argument used in this case.Kraken said:
So copycat cars are banned for 2021 but what are they going to do about the Racing Point now? Seems a bit unfair to let them copy another car and then stop other teams from doing it as well.
Everybody copies, its part of the dna of F1.What has been ruled against is the process used ti create one component, not the fact its a similar component.
jsf said:
Everybody copies, its part of the dna of F1.
What has been ruled against is the process used ti create one component, not the fact its a similar component.
Uh no, they have banned exactly what Racing Point did with copying the Mercedes and they say in the press release that they won't stop Racing Point retrospectively but no-one from now on will be able to copy a car to the extent that Racing Point have.What has been ruled against is the process used ti create one component, not the fact its a similar component.
https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/151145/f1-to-out...
Kraken said:
Uh no, they have banned exactly what Racing Point did with copying the Mercedes and they say in the press release that they won't stop Racing Point retrospectively but no-one from now on will be able to copy a car to the extent that Racing Point have.
https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/151145/f1-to-out...
What we are discussing is this year and this years rules, not what they plan to implement (that will be a can of worms, good luck with that) for next year.https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/151145/f1-to-out...
I have read the whole FIA judgement and they explicitly state copying is normal and allowed for this year.
The only component that has been ruled against is the rear brake duct, the front was ruled as fully compliant in both the SR's and TR's.
The reason the front is OK according to the FIA is because they actually ran the front design in 2019 and then refined it.
The reason the rear isn't OK according to the FIA is because they didn't run that in 2019, so it's design is from a Mercedes 2019 component.
A competent lawyer would tear that judgement to pieces, because it is using intent of regulations rather than the regulations themselves to come to it's conclusion. It actually states the sporting regs don't cover this issue at all.
It's clearly a political decision and not a legal one to come up with this judgement and sanction. It will be interesting to see if this now gets forgotten about or RP decide to call the FIA's bluff. If the other teams push for a harder sanction, RP will go balls out on appealing this and they would win in any none FIA court IMHO.
https://www.fia.com/sites/default/files/doc_4_-_re...
Ferrari appealing has to be the greatest display of hypocrisy ever, after last year’s events.
The FIA is not fit for purpose as a sporting regulatory authority. Every draft of the regulations seem to be able to create loopholes within which the teams can either succeed, or fail, to cheat to a greater, or lesser, extent.
What other body would have two sets of regulations, sporting and technical and then allow something to be compliant within one set and illegal within the other.
Instead of discussing racing, all attention is on the perceived wisdom of the FIA, it is they who are bringing the sport into disrepute. Coming up with a verdict that penalises a team, but then allows them to continue to infringing the rules is simply a mockery of their processes.
The FIA is not fit for purpose as a sporting regulatory authority. Every draft of the regulations seem to be able to create loopholes within which the teams can either succeed, or fail, to cheat to a greater, or lesser, extent.
What other body would have two sets of regulations, sporting and technical and then allow something to be compliant within one set and illegal within the other.
Instead of discussing racing, all attention is on the perceived wisdom of the FIA, it is they who are bringing the sport into disrepute. Coming up with a verdict that penalises a team, but then allows them to continue to infringing the rules is simply a mockery of their processes.
Edited by rdjohn on Saturday 8th August 07:42
rdjohn said:
Ferrari appealing has to be the greatest display of hypocrisy ever, after last year’s events.
The FIA is not fit for purpose as a sporting regulatory authority. Every draft of the regulations seem to be able to create loopholes within which the teams can either succeed, or fail, to cheat to a greater, or lesser, extent.
What other body would have two sets of regulations, sporting and technical and then allow something to be compliant within one set and illegal within the other.
Instead of discussing racing, all attention is on the perceived wisdom of the FIA, it is they who are bringing the sport into disrepute. Coming up with a verdict that penalises a team, but then allows them to continue to infringing the rules is simply a mockery of their processes.
Yes totally agree, and leaves a bad taste to see the giant of Ferrari protest a small team .The FIA is not fit for purpose as a sporting regulatory authority. Every draft of the regulations seem to be able to create loopholes within which the teams can either succeed, or fail, to cheat to a greater, or lesser, extent.
What other body would have two sets of regulations, sporting and technical and then allow something to be compliant within one set and illegal within the other.
Instead of discussing racing, all attention is on the perceived wisdom of the FIA, it is they who are bringing the sport into disrepute. Coming up with a verdict that penalises a team, but then allows them to continue to infringing the rules is simply a mockery of their processes.
Edited by rdjohn on Saturday 8th August 07:42
FIA = Ferrari international Assistance
rallycross said:
Yes totally agree, and leaves a bad taste to see the giant of Ferrari protest a small team .
FIA = Ferrari international Assistance
They won't be the first to protest and I agree 100% with them for protesting. Renault are still saying they have done nothing wrong and are even saying it's perfectly ok because Haas had brake ducts from Ferrari last year. What Renault don't seem to get is that it was legal to have brake ducts from another manufacturer last year but this year must be totally your own design not using the previous year as a base. Haas understood the rules and hired specialist staff to design completely new brake ducts that were the built by Dallara.FIA = Ferrari international Assistance
Kraken said:
They won't be the first to protest and I agree 100% with them for protesting. Renault are still saying they have done nothing wrong and are even saying it's perfectly ok because Haas had brake ducts from Ferrari last year. What Renault don't seem to get is that it was legal to have brake ducts from another manufacturer last year but this year must be totally your own design not using the previous year as a base. Haas understood the rules and hired specialist staff to design completely new brake ducts that were the built by Dallara.
You write as if they key players in Mercedes and RP are complete imbeciles, completely unaware of the sport’s rules. They are not!RP kept the FIA fully informed of what they were doing with regard to the whole of their 2020 chassis. By some degree of magic, Renault became aware of the similarities of last year’s brake ducts, presumably including the internal vane geometries that makes them special and put in an objection. This aspect has a whiff about it.
Then 4-guys in blazers are called upon to decide what the letter of the loopholes in the regulations actually mean. They come up with a penalty which no other team seems to agree with.
And then folks wonder why Mercedes are taking their time to decide if they wish to continue playing in this farcical sport. The 4-guys in blazers were not even given the opportunity to judge and penalise the dodgy fuelling arrangements that Ferrari were using last year.
Somehow the supervisory role of the FIA needs to be diminished and leave the rule making and interpretation to the likes of Ross Brawn, Pat Symonds and other reliable professionals.
F1 is supposed to be the pinnacle of Motorsport - not the laughing stock.
rdjohn said:
They come up with a penalty which no other team seems to agree with.
Yes a penalty that the other teams think is far too lenient which is why five teams are protesting it. To me (and I know I seem to be in a tiny minority in this) it's farcical to say a team broke a rule and then let them keep using the parts in question and the proposed new rules banning copycat cars makes it even worse.The technical wranglings are the only part of F1 I find interesting. It's such a farcical sport to start with it's hard to see how it can be made any worse.
I am now really confused: https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/53704691
So 5 teams include racing point, why would they appeal or am I not reading this correctly
So 5 teams include racing point, why would they appeal or am I not reading this correctly
waynecyclist said:
I am now really confused: https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/53704691
So 5 teams include racing point, why would they appeal or am I not reading this correctly
I think the "appeal" is more a request for clarification of the rules. Basically this forces the FIA to bring the matter to open court.So 5 teams include racing point, why would they appeal or am I not reading this correctly
Kraken said:
They won't be the first to protest and I agree 100% with them for protesting. Renault are still saying they have done nothing wrong and are even saying it's perfectly ok because Haas had brake ducts from Ferrari last year. What Renault don't seem to get is that it was legal to have brake ducts from another manufacturer last year but this year must be totally your own design not using the previous year as a base. Haas understood the rules and hired specialist staff to design completely new brake ducts that were the built by Dallara.
You can't even get the name of the team correct, it's no wonder the rest of it is beyond you.rdjohn said:
What other body would have two sets of regulations, sporting and technical and then allow something to be compliant within one set and illegal within the other.
It's not unusual to have sporting and technical regulations. The problem in this case is neither rule set covers what RP did, so the stewards have made up their own view and based their ruling on that.This is why toto and otmar find the ruling bewildering.
If this goes to a proper court, it's highly likely the ruling will be overturned.
Deesee said:
Open court will be interesting especially if the CAD designs have been handed over, and it might shed some light on the rumours of the W10 being laser scanned/3D mapped by racing point..
They were bought and paid for in 2019 - everything was in the open. Nothing underhand has happened. They have not broken the rules, just found guilty of working within a grey area, by unpaid Stewards. It compares similarly to how Mercedes developed DAS. They kept the FIA fully informed, the FIA said it was within the 2020 rules, but banned it for 2021. Red Bull queried it with the Stewards in Austria and they said DAS was legit.
I don’t think that RP should be allowed to do, what they have done. It needed an unambiguous rule to prevent it happening. I do hope that they win, if only to demonstrate the general incompetence of the FIA.
Edited by rdjohn on Saturday 8th August 19:42
jsf said:
rdjohn said:
What other body would have two sets of regulations, sporting and technical and then allow something to be compliant within one set and illegal within the other.
It's not unusual to have sporting and technical regulations. The problem in this case is neither rule set covers what RP did, so the stewards have made up their own view and based their ruling on that.This is why toto and otmar find the ruling bewildering.
If this goes to a proper court, it's highly likely the ruling will be overturned.
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