Lewis Hamilton (Vol. 2)
Discussion
C70R said:
It seems like racing is all he's ever known, and to be at the pinnacle of the sport is all he's ever wanted. I'd be staggered if he didn't win this season and then come back with the same hunger next year.
Schuey was a wonderful driver, who benefitted like Lewis from having comfortably the best car on most occasions. However, Schuey was also a dirty, aggressive git at times, so that always taints his career for me personally. I'll never forgive him for the Hill deliberate crash in Australia, for example. Just revolting.
I can't agree with "wonderful" - Schuey was an FCB (F*cking Crashing B*stard) IMO especially after that ramming incident in Oz. Schuey was a wonderful driver, who benefitted like Lewis from having comfortably the best car on most occasions. However, Schuey was also a dirty, aggressive git at times, so that always taints his career for me personally. I'll never forgive him for the Hill deliberate crash in Australia, for example. Just revolting.
So for someone who drives as cleanly as Lewis does to match the crasher's number of wins makes it seem even more special!
I just can't wait for LH to get another win and world title to consign MS records to 2nd rate!
BTW whatever happened to some other German bloke called Sebastian who was supposed to be a superstar?
CoolHands said:
I just concerned that gradually his internal conflict between being a racer in F1 and the environmental issues which weigh on his mind will lead him to step down before he would otherwise have done. I actually worry it could be sooner than we think.
I think the problem with doing things in unprecidented numbers is thst you don't know how easy they'll be in the future.Steven Hendry had totally smashed the record books when his powers started to wane and he walked away. Would he have built a bigger hill for O'Sullivan to climb, had he known?
Would the Ferrari team have kept the dream team together another few years if they knew Alonso had a Lewis shaped nightmare just around the corner and a hybrid-turbo era with billion dollar investment would see even their dominance look patchy?
Lewis needs to keep going until he can't win if the record matters to him (which it has never seemed to that much). That might be the next rule change or it might be in five years! Motivation is a funny thing.
Rosberg had enough after one WDC. Alonso looks like he'd do it all again at fifty if he could win another!
On the Jackie Stewart thing, isn't it natural for racing drivers, the mothers of all narcissists, to believe their achievements were done in tougher circumstances then anyone else? Don't they always go 'but we had it harder'?
The skill these people have is that they can drive a car faster than just about anyone else. On that basis, it doesn't really matter which era you're in- you drive the cars that are available at the time.
Do I believe Senna, Prost, Schumacher or Hamilton would have raced any less hard in cars of the 50s and 60s than those who were of that time? To me, of course not. They're racing drivers.
Equally, would Clark, Fangio, Stewart or Lauda have found it impossible to drive the current cars with the same speed and dedication as current drivers? To me, of course not. They're racing drivers.
The skill these people have is that they can drive a car faster than just about anyone else. On that basis, it doesn't really matter which era you're in- you drive the cars that are available at the time.
Do I believe Senna, Prost, Schumacher or Hamilton would have raced any less hard in cars of the 50s and 60s than those who were of that time? To me, of course not. They're racing drivers.
Equally, would Clark, Fangio, Stewart or Lauda have found it impossible to drive the current cars with the same speed and dedication as current drivers? To me, of course not. They're racing drivers.
I don't believe Stewart was bitter. His view seems eclectic and based on driver records as a whole, not just number of wins and poles.
Consider this: the number of GPs per season has doubled, more or less, since he drove. From this, it's not surprising if the dominant driver in the best team breaks records for most win and poles.
Cars are more self protected from driver error and more reliable by rules these days.
Not to downplay Hamilton's efforts, but there are many driver records he hasn't beaten to be considered the best so far.
To his credit, Hamilton is currently above Clark's win percentage, but has he beaten Senna's qualifying percentage? Clark's? Fangio's win and qualifying percentages?
Consider this: the number of GPs per season has doubled, more or less, since he drove. From this, it's not surprising if the dominant driver in the best team breaks records for most win and poles.
Cars are more self protected from driver error and more reliable by rules these days.
Not to downplay Hamilton's efforts, but there are many driver records he hasn't beaten to be considered the best so far.
To his credit, Hamilton is currently above Clark's win percentage, but has he beaten Senna's qualifying percentage? Clark's? Fangio's win and qualifying percentages?
Edited by anonymous-user on Tuesday 13th October 08:24
There has been brilliance in every era. And there have been brilliant drives by also-rans in every era.
I dont get why Stewart seems to have a downer on Hamilton. Is it because he held the records before lewis came along?
JYS has always been very loyal to his sponsors. Maybe Lewis turned down the Ford scorpio and Rolex watch in favour of more modern brands??
Maybe lewis needs to find some scottish ancestory. When will tartan be back in fashion?
Maybe its an old man from another generation whose words and meaning are not as carefully contolled and PR savvy as these days, and they get misunderstood?
I dont get why Stewart seems to have a downer on Hamilton. Is it because he held the records before lewis came along?
JYS has always been very loyal to his sponsors. Maybe Lewis turned down the Ford scorpio and Rolex watch in favour of more modern brands??
Maybe lewis needs to find some scottish ancestory. When will tartan be back in fashion?
Maybe its an old man from another generation whose words and meaning are not as carefully contolled and PR savvy as these days, and they get misunderstood?
Looking at all the driver records, Fangio looks like the best of Formula 1 so far. His percentage records are unlikely to ever be beaten.
I think people see Hamilton as the best, as he's won so many poles and races recently. Recent memories are freshest.
Stewart may be putting forward a more historical view than most do. He may have witnessed more F1 history first hand than most people alive today.
Each to their own, but I'm inclined to at least give him a fair listen.
I think people see Hamilton as the best, as he's won so many poles and races recently. Recent memories are freshest.
Stewart may be putting forward a more historical view than most do. He may have witnessed more F1 history first hand than most people alive today.
Each to their own, but I'm inclined to at least give him a fair listen.
Edited by anonymous-user on Tuesday 13th October 08:53
uptheraidillon said:
Looking at all the driver records, without being biased to anyone, Fangio is the master of Formula 1. His percentage records are unlikely to ever be beaten.
Again, that's really subjective.Edited by uptheraidillon on Tuesday 13th October 08:37
Fangio was, without doubt, magnificent but he was of his era. Times were different, racing was different, cars were different.
Fangio was the master of his era, but I don't think it's possible to compare drivers of different eras.
Here's my era rating FWIW (the decades are loose, to tie in with different periods of development)
50's Fangio
60's Clark
70s Lauda
80s-mid 90s Senna
Mid-90s to 00s Schumacher
10s Hamilton
Saying which was the best of this group is impossible IMO
Muzzer79 said:
Again, that's really subjective.
Fangio was, without doubt, magnificent but he was of his era. Times were different, racing was different, cars were different.
Fangio was the master of his era, but I don't think it's possible to compare drivers of different eras.
Here's my era rating FWIW (the decades are loose, to tie in with different periods of development)
50's Fangio
60's Clark
70s Lauda
80s-mid 90s Senna
Mid-90s to 00s Schumacher
10s Hamilton
Saying which was the best of this group is impossible IMO
Exactly, the history books can show the numbers, and there’s no disputing those, but the GOAT, that’s a different matter. Impossible to split the drivers. Fangio was, without doubt, magnificent but he was of his era. Times were different, racing was different, cars were different.
Fangio was the master of his era, but I don't think it's possible to compare drivers of different eras.
Here's my era rating FWIW (the decades are loose, to tie in with different periods of development)
50's Fangio
60's Clark
70s Lauda
80s-mid 90s Senna
Mid-90s to 00s Schumacher
10s Hamilton
Saying which was the best of this group is impossible IMO
vdn said:
glazbagun said:
ddom said:
You cannot compare the generations and IMO Hamilton is no match for Schumacher/Prost/Senna et al.
You cannot compare generations ... and then you do so in the very same sentence!
Prost and Senna were definitely the same era and I'd probably rate them equally but for different reasons.
Muzzer79 said:
uptheraidillon said:
Looking at all the driver records, without being biased to anyone, Fangio is the master of Formula 1. His percentage records are unlikely to ever be beaten.
Again, that's really subjective.Edited by anonymous-user on Tuesday 13th October 08:37
Fangio was, without doubt, magnificent but he was of his era. Times were different, racing was different, cars were different.
Edited by anonymous-user on Tuesday 13th October 09:16
One small point; does it matter?
I am not a fan of any particular driver - I follow a team - but I've enjoyed F1 more with LH in it.
I was impressed with him when he first entered F1, driving for the greatest team of all time. I've seen him develop his skills in cars that were not the class of the field, and then move onto Merc, improving season on season, learning from his successes as well as his failures.
I've followed F1 for many years, some of which I describe as being a nerd in. I've run a number of F1 fanzines. I've seen drivers who will definately be a WDC disappear in a cloud of nonentity. I've identified drivers of undoubted ability who then go on to prove me wrong. I was always certain that LH would do well if he stuck at it, but equaling MS' records? No chance.
Almost all the greats were heavily criticised by fans at some point in their careers, even the sainted Clark, only to go on to be eulogised, and become untouchable.
If you compare LH to MS, then there has been a significant lack of scandal for one of them. The worst critcisms of LH seem to be his haircuts, his dress sense and that people 'don't like' him.
We've had a period of high coverage of the sport, although lately at a cost, and never have drivers been so heavily scrutinised. Yet LH comes out of it all with remarkably little sticking to him. His actions with regards Stepneygate were exemplary, unlike two other drivers in the team I could mention.
I don't know whether I'd like him if I met him, but he comes over as a genuine F1 nerd, so it is probable that I would.
It doesn't matter whether he's better than Prost, Senna, Fangio et al. It's impossible to come to an evidenced conclusion. What we can say is that he's dedicated, he's fast, he's consistent and, most important of all as far as I'm concerned, he's entertaining.
When he stops racing in F1, it will, almost certainly, be the poorer.
I am not a fan of any particular driver - I follow a team - but I've enjoyed F1 more with LH in it.
I was impressed with him when he first entered F1, driving for the greatest team of all time. I've seen him develop his skills in cars that were not the class of the field, and then move onto Merc, improving season on season, learning from his successes as well as his failures.
I've followed F1 for many years, some of which I describe as being a nerd in. I've run a number of F1 fanzines. I've seen drivers who will definately be a WDC disappear in a cloud of nonentity. I've identified drivers of undoubted ability who then go on to prove me wrong. I was always certain that LH would do well if he stuck at it, but equaling MS' records? No chance.
Almost all the greats were heavily criticised by fans at some point in their careers, even the sainted Clark, only to go on to be eulogised, and become untouchable.
If you compare LH to MS, then there has been a significant lack of scandal for one of them. The worst critcisms of LH seem to be his haircuts, his dress sense and that people 'don't like' him.
We've had a period of high coverage of the sport, although lately at a cost, and never have drivers been so heavily scrutinised. Yet LH comes out of it all with remarkably little sticking to him. His actions with regards Stepneygate were exemplary, unlike two other drivers in the team I could mention.
I don't know whether I'd like him if I met him, but he comes over as a genuine F1 nerd, so it is probable that I would.
It doesn't matter whether he's better than Prost, Senna, Fangio et al. It's impossible to come to an evidenced conclusion. What we can say is that he's dedicated, he's fast, he's consistent and, most important of all as far as I'm concerned, he's entertaining.
When he stops racing in F1, it will, almost certainly, be the poorer.
uptheraidillon said:
To his credit, Hamilton is currently above Clark's win percentage, but has he beaten Senna's qualifying percentage? Clark's? Fangio's win and qualifying percentages?
the problem with percentages, is that they're dependent on career length ...i mean if JV had retired/ deceased after 4 races, he'd have had a quali percentage of 100%unfortunately we lost both Clark & Senna too soon
ddom said:
Muzzer79 said:
Again, that's really subjective.
Fangio was, without doubt, magnificent but he was of his era. Times were different, racing was different, cars were different.
Fangio was the master of his era, but I don't think it's possible to compare drivers of different eras.
Here's my era rating FWIW (the decades are loose, to tie in with different periods of development)
50's Fangio
60's Clark
70s Lauda
80s-mid 90s Senna
Mid-90s to 00s Schumacher
10s Hamilton
Saying which was the best of this group is impossible IMO
Exactly, the history books can show the numbers, and there’s no disputing those, but the GOAT, that’s a different matter. Impossible to split the drivers. Fangio was, without doubt, magnificent but he was of his era. Times were different, racing was different, cars were different.
Fangio was the master of his era, but I don't think it's possible to compare drivers of different eras.
Here's my era rating FWIW (the decades are loose, to tie in with different periods of development)
50's Fangio
60's Clark
70s Lauda
80s-mid 90s Senna
Mid-90s to 00s Schumacher
10s Hamilton
Saying which was the best of this group is impossible IMO
williamp said:
There has been brilliance in every era. And there have been brilliant drives by also-rans in every era.
I dont get why Stewart seems to have a downer on Hamilton. Is it because he held the records before lewis came along?
JYS has always been very loyal to his sponsors. Maybe Lewis turned down the Ford scorpio and Rolex watch in favour of more modern brands??
Maybe lewis needs to find some scottish ancestory. When will tartan be back in fashion?
Maybe its an old man from another generation whose words and meaning are not as carefully contolled and PR savvy as these days, and they get misunderstood?
Prost beat all of Stewarts records iirc. But Prost was also full of praise for Clark, Stewart, etc.I dont get why Stewart seems to have a downer on Hamilton. Is it because he held the records before lewis came along?
JYS has always been very loyal to his sponsors. Maybe Lewis turned down the Ford scorpio and Rolex watch in favour of more modern brands??
Maybe lewis needs to find some scottish ancestory. When will tartan be back in fashion?
Maybe its an old man from another generation whose words and meaning are not as carefully contolled and PR savvy as these days, and they get misunderstood?
I think its a combination of a guy who has always been opinionated and thick skinned (his biography reads like that!), with a media keen to portray him as an adversary combined with Lewis not rarely seeming to care much about the past (barring Senna) meaning they're also unlikely to get on.
They both seemed to get on with Lauda from what I recall, so I doubt they have a problem with strong personalities who don't mince their words, and the worst I've heard JYS say about Lewis is that he can't honestly call him the greatest f1 driver ever. He had much worse things to say about Senna!
Edited by glazbagun on Tuesday 13th October 09:40
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