Lewis Hamilton (Vol. 2)
Discussion
RB Will said:
another element, again not fully the drivers fault, that helps building stats these days is circuit design and safety features changing. I'm sure there are a number times drivers, including Lewis have overcooked it but been able to rejoin after a light excursion into gravel or tarmac run off where in the past that would have been a hard shunt and any hope of a reasonable finish gone etc etc
That's true, and another reason it's really futile to compare, for example, Clark with Hamilton. On the one hand, Clark had to drive in a car with no seatbelts, surrounded by fuel, at some very scary circuits, like the Nordschleife. On the other hand, the cars Clark and the other drivers of that era were driving were, to a current F1 driver, laughably slow. So it's swings and roundabouts.paulguitar said:
That's true, and another reason it's really futile to compare, for example, Clark with Hamilton. On the one hand, Clark had to drive in a car with no seatbelts, surrounded by fuel, at some very scary circuits, like the Nordschleife. On the other hand, the cars Clark and the other drivers of that era were driving were, to a current F1 driver, laughably slow. So it's swings and roundabouts.
Link to statistics pleaseddom said:
Oh dear, you just cannot accept that someone has a different opinion can you, what is it exactly?
And here we get to the nub of the matter on what , as ever , is an entertaining but totally unproductive debate.I first started watching it all at Silverstone for the inaugural British Grand Prix as a kid of 6 years with my fingers in my ears , somewhat frightened by the spectacle of it all . I was hooked and it’s never left me . Whenever I see a GP car from the 50s to the late 70s I still shiver at the thought that they were killing machines driven by blokes with a mixture of unimaginable bravery and skill.
As ever some rise to become legends for winning multiple WDC but , as ever , they only win against the opposition of the time. Modern drivers , thanks to the likes of JYS and technological advances don’t have to worry so much about personal safety so drive more aggressively but the base skills apply.
A mystery to me is that Stewart’s driving mastery and record does not feature in any of the arguments. A cause for discussion ?
I had not followed Hamilton’s career in the lower ranks . It took the first corner in the first GP for me to leap out of my seat shouting . Here was a guy who was laying down his marker . Nothing I have seen since has failed to convince me that he is the greatest of his generation and no aspect of his off track/ personal life takes away his right to proper respect for his career to date .
mike-v2tmf said:
paulguitar said:
That's true, and another reason it's really futile to compare, for example, Clark with Hamilton. On the one hand, Clark had to drive in a car with no seatbelts, surrounded by fuel, at some very scary circuits, like the Nordschleife. On the other hand, the cars Clark and the other drivers of that era were driving were, to a current F1 driver, laughably slow. So it's swings and roundabouts.
Link to statistics pleaseETA. If the latter, please see below.
Edited by paulguitar on Tuesday 13th October 17:20
angrymoby said:
| Driver | WDC | WDCs Beaten | Comment |
|---|---|---|---|
| Alain Prost | 4 | 5 | Lauda (1985); Rosberg (1986); Senna (1989); Mansell (1990); Hill (1993) |
| Lewis Hamilton | 6 | 3 | Alonso (2007); Button (2010, 2012); Rosberg (2013, 2014, 2015) |
| Jenson Button | 1 | 3 | Villeneuve (2003); Hamilton (2011); Alonso (2015) |
| Niki Lauda | 3 | 2 | Piquet (1979); Prost (1984) |
| Fernando Alonso | 2 | 2 | Raikkonen (2014); Button (2016) |
| Alberto Ascari | 2 | 2 | Farina, Hawthorn (1953) |
| Nico Rosberg | 1 | 2 | Schumacher (2010, 2011, 2012); Hamilton (2016) |
| Keke Rosberg | 1 | 2 | Fittipaldi (1980); Mansell (1985) |
| Juan Manuel Fangio | 5 | 1 | Farina (1951) |
| Sebastian Vettel | 4 | 1 | Raikkonen (2015, 2016) |
| Ayrton Senna | 3 | 1 | Prost (1988) |
| Jack Brabham | 3 | 1 | Hulme (1965, 1966) |
| Nelson Piquet | 3 | 1 | Mansell (1987) |
| Emerson Fittipaldi | 2 | 1 | Hulme (1973) |
| Graham Hill | 2 | 1 | Stewart (1965, 1966) |
| Jim Clark | 2 | 1 | Hill (1967) |
| Damon Hill | 1 | 1 | Villeneuve (1996) |
| Giuseppe Farina | 1 | 1 | Hawthorn (1953) |
| Jochen Rindt | 1 | 1 | Brabham (1968) |
| John Surtees | 1 | 1 | Rindt (1966) |
| Nigel Mansell | 1 | 1 | Piquet (1986) |
this was from 2016/17 ...needs updating
Deesee said:
angrymoby said:
| Driver | WDC | WDCs Beaten | Comment |
|---|---|---|---|
| Alain Prost | 4 | 5 | Lauda (1985); Rosberg (1986); Senna (1989); Mansell (1990); Hill (1993) |
| Lewis Hamilton | 6 | 3 | Alonso (2007); Button (2010, 2012); Rosberg (2013, 2014, 2015) |
| Jenson Button | 1 | 3 | Villeneuve (2003); Hamilton (2011); Alonso (2015) |
| Niki Lauda | 3 | 2 | Piquet (1979); Prost (1984) |
| Fernando Alonso | 2 | 2 | Raikkonen (2014); Button (2016) |
| Alberto Ascari | 2 | 2 | Farina, Hawthorn (1953) |
| Nico Rosberg | 1 | 2 | Schumacher (2010, 2011, 2012); Hamilton (2016) |
| Keke Rosberg | 1 | 2 | Fittipaldi (1980); Mansell (1985) |
| Juan Manuel Fangio | 5 | 1 | Farina (1951) |
| Sebastian Vettel | 4 | 1 | Raikkonen (2015, 2016) |
| Ayrton Senna | 3 | 1 | Prost (1988) |
| Jack Brabham | 3 | 1 | Hulme (1965, 1966) |
| Nelson Piquet | 3 | 1 | Mansell (1987) |
| Emerson Fittipaldi | 2 | 1 | Hulme (1973) |
| Graham Hill | 2 | 1 | Stewart (1965, 1966) |
| Jim Clark | 2 | 1 | Hill (1967) |
| Damon Hill | 1 | 1 | Villeneuve (1996) |
| Giuseppe Farina | 1 | 1 | Hawthorn (1953) |
| Jochen Rindt | 1 | 1 | Brabham (1968) |
| John Surtees | 1 | 1 | Rindt (1966) |
| Nigel Mansell | 1 | 1 | Piquet (1986) |
this was from 2016/17 ...needs updating
Some very interesting info (although ten years old) here:
https://www.motorsportsetc.com/info/spd_mon.htm
To update to recent times...
Hamilton's pole lap time Monaco 2019 1:10.166.
Ayton Senna 1989 pole 1:22.308
Jim Clark pole 1964 1:34
So Clark to Hamilton, lap time difference, 24 seconds.
The difference in machinery is such that Clark would be lapped every three tours of the Monaco circuit...
These times, of course, do not in any way to diminish the efforts of Clark or any other drivers from times past, just demonstrate how completely different eras are. The 1960's drivers would have had very low g forces from the tyres of the time, and very little downforce. On the other hand, they knew if they made a mistake they were very likely to be in serious trouble.
I think that if Clark was driving today he'd be brilliant, and if Hamilton was driving in the 1960s, he'd be brilliant too. We have no real way of knowing that though.
https://www.motorsportsetc.com/info/spd_mon.htm
To update to recent times...
Hamilton's pole lap time Monaco 2019 1:10.166.
Ayton Senna 1989 pole 1:22.308
Jim Clark pole 1964 1:34
So Clark to Hamilton, lap time difference, 24 seconds.
The difference in machinery is such that Clark would be lapped every three tours of the Monaco circuit...These times, of course, do not in any way to diminish the efforts of Clark or any other drivers from times past, just demonstrate how completely different eras are. The 1960's drivers would have had very low g forces from the tyres of the time, and very little downforce. On the other hand, they knew if they made a mistake they were very likely to be in serious trouble.
I think that if Clark was driving today he'd be brilliant, and if Hamilton was driving in the 1960s, he'd be brilliant too. We have no real way of knowing that though.
Am I missing a subtle point about that list because Stewart and Schumacher are missing (and perhaps a few other)?
angrymoby said:
| Driver | WDC | WDCs Beaten | Comment |
|---|---|---|---|
| Alain Prost | 4 | 5 | Lauda (1985); Rosberg (1986); Senna (1989); Mansell (1990); Hill (1993) |
| Lewis Hamilton | 3 | 3 | Alonso (2007); Button (2010, 2012); Rosberg (2013, 2014, 2015) |
| Jenson Button | 1 | 3 | Villeneuve (2003); Hamilton (2011); Alonso (2015) |
| Niki Lauda | 3 | 2 | Piquet (1979); Prost (1984) |
| Fernando Alonso | 2 | 2 | Raikkonen (2014); Button (2016) |
| Alberto Ascari | 2 | 2 | Farina, Hawthorn (1953) |
| Nico Rosberg | 1 | 2 | Schumacher (2010, 2011, 2012); Hamilton (2016) |
| Keke Rosberg | 1 | 2 | Fittipaldi (1980); Mansell (1985) |
| Juan Manuel Fangio | 5 | 1 | Farina (1951) |
| Sebastian Vettel | 4 | 1 | Raikkonen (2015, 2016) |
| Ayrton Senna | 3 | 1 | Prost (1988) |
| Jack Brabham | 3 | 1 | Hulme (1965, 1966) |
| Nelson Piquet | 3 | 1 | Mansell (1987) |
| Emerson Fittipaldi | 2 | 1 | Hulme (1973) |
| Graham Hill | 2 | 1 | Stewart (1965, 1966) |
| Jim Clark | 2 | 1 | Hill (1967) |
| Damon Hill | 1 | 1 | Villeneuve (1996) |
| Giuseppe Farina | 1 | 1 | Hawthorn (1953) |
| Jochen Rindt | 1 | 1 | Brabham (1968) |
| John Surtees | 1 | 1 | Rindt (1966) |
| Nigel Mansell | 1 | 1 | Piquet (1986) |
this was from 2016/17 ...needs updating
paulguitar said:
Some very interesting info (although ten years old) here:
https://www.motorsportsetc.com/info/spd_mon.htm
To update to recent times...
Hamilton's pole lap time Monaco 2019 1:10.166.
Ayton Senna 1989 pole 1:22.308
Jim Clark pole 1964 1:34
So Clark to Hamilton, lap time difference, 24 seconds. The difference in machinery is such that Clark would be lapped every three tours of the Monaco circuit...
These times, of course, do not in any way to diminish the efforts of Clark or any other drivers from times past, just demonstrate how completely different eras are. The 1960's drivers would have had very low g forces from the tyres of the time, and very little downforce. On the other hand, they knew if they made a mistake they were very likely to be in serious trouble.
I think that if Clark was driving today he'd be brilliant, and if Hamilton was driving in the 1960s, he'd be brilliant too. We have no real way of knowing that though.
To be fair the Monaco circuit was slightly changed around the swimming pool area from Senna's pole lap in 89 compared to the modern day. Not sure which year exactly the redesign was implemented but I reckon that it accounted for around 4-5 secondshttps://www.motorsportsetc.com/info/spd_mon.htm
To update to recent times...
Hamilton's pole lap time Monaco 2019 1:10.166.
Ayton Senna 1989 pole 1:22.308
Jim Clark pole 1964 1:34
So Clark to Hamilton, lap time difference, 24 seconds.
The difference in machinery is such that Clark would be lapped every three tours of the Monaco circuit...These times, of course, do not in any way to diminish the efforts of Clark or any other drivers from times past, just demonstrate how completely different eras are. The 1960's drivers would have had very low g forces from the tyres of the time, and very little downforce. On the other hand, they knew if they made a mistake they were very likely to be in serious trouble.
I think that if Clark was driving today he'd be brilliant, and if Hamilton was driving in the 1960s, he'd be brilliant too. We have no real way of knowing that though.
Then if you factor in that modern F1 cars appear to be cornering like on Scalextric tracks you realise just how far technology has pushed the envelope
ghuk said:
To be fair the Monaco circuit was slightly changed around the swimming pool area from Senna's pole lap in 89 compared to the modern day. Not sure which year exactly the redesign was implemented but I reckon that it accounted for around 4-5 seconds
Then if you factor in that modern F1 cars appear to be cornering like on Scalextric tracks you realise just how far technology has pushed the envelope
Yes, I did remember that Monaco had seen a change around that part of the track. This makes it more difficult to compare, of course. What I'd really wanted to find was what sort of a lap time something like a Lotus 49 would do around the current Silverstone configuration, so we could compare with the Mercedes 1:24 pole pace, but I was not able to find anything on that. Maybe someone here plays a SIM game or something of that nature and could give some kind of estimate?Then if you factor in that modern F1 cars appear to be cornering like on Scalextric tracks you realise just how far technology has pushed the envelope
RichB said:
Am I missing a subtle point about that list because Stewart and Schumacher are missing (and perhaps a few other)?
this was from 2016/17 ...needs updating
The table is one stat / record that I think Hamilton won’t break... never the less, second is a good show!angrymoby said:
| Driver | WDC | WDCs Beaten | Comment |
|---|---|---|---|
| Alain Prost | 4 | 5 | Lauda (1985); Rosberg (1986); Senna (1989); Mansell (1990); Hill (1993) |
| Lewis Hamilton | 3 | 3 | Alonso (2007); Button (2010, 2012); Rosberg (2013, 2014, 2015) |
| Jenson Button | 1 | 3 | Villeneuve (2003); Hamilton (2011); Alonso (2015) |
| Niki Lauda | 3 | 2 | Piquet (1979); Prost (1984) |
| Fernando Alonso | 2 | 2 | Raikkonen (2014); Button (2016) |
| Alberto Ascari | 2 | 2 | Farina, Hawthorn (1953) |
| Nico Rosberg | 1 | 2 | Schumacher (2010, 2011, 2012); Hamilton (2016) |
| Keke Rosberg | 1 | 2 | Fittipaldi (1980); Mansell (1985) |
| Juan Manuel Fangio | 5 | 1 | Farina (1951) |
| Sebastian Vettel | 4 | 1 | Raikkonen (2015, 2016) |
| Ayrton Senna | 3 | 1 | Prost (1988) |
| Jack Brabham | 3 | 1 | Hulme (1965, 1966) |
| Nelson Piquet | 3 | 1 | Mansell (1987) |
| Emerson Fittipaldi | 2 | 1 | Hulme (1973) |
| Graham Hill | 2 | 1 | Stewart (1965, 1966) |
| Jim Clark | 2 | 1 | Hill (1967) |
| Damon Hill | 1 | 1 | Villeneuve (1996) |
| Giuseppe Farina | 1 | 1 | Hawthorn (1953) |
| Jochen Rindt | 1 | 1 | Brabham (1968) |
| John Surtees | 1 | 1 | Rindt (1966) |
| Nigel Mansell | 1 | 1 | Piquet (1986) |
this was from 2016/17 ...needs updating
paulguitar said:
Yes, I did remember that Monaco had seen a change around that part of the track. This makes it more difficult to compare, of course. What I'd really wanted to find was what sort of a lap time something like a Lotus 49 would do around the current Silverstone configuration, so we could compare with the Mercedes 1:24 pole pace, but I was not able to find anything on that. Maybe someone here plays a SIM game or something of that nature and could give some kind of estimate?
A friend of mine races a classic F1 car, can’t remember if the series is Masters or Historic GP but they use current tracks, he got pole at Silverstone last year, you might be able to find the times, I think it was wet thoughGassing Station | Formula 1 | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff