Lewis Hamilton (Vol. 2)

[Halmyre]

Bo_apex said:

That was probably the right call from Jos.
Max was too young and punk for corporate Mercedes.
Probably still a bit too young and he's still evolving

Young he might be but he's been in the top flight for six years.

[M5-911]

So many drivers suffer from being second best in every teams.
Funnily enough, appart from Hamilton, i don't think that any other driver would out qualify Bottas in a Mercedes. He just can't manage fast pace as well as tyre management during races.

Putting drivers like Sainz, Norris or Russel against Hamilton could destroy there career. That is why Jos Verstapen went against Max joining Mercedes, psychologically it can be make or brake.
Alonso suffered massively from his battle with Hamilton from their first season together(should have been the opposite). Alonso knew he wasn't the fastest on the grid anymore and mentally it affect anyone knowing that another guy is just quicker or better at what you do.

[HustleRussell]

Bo_apex said:

Probably still a bit too young and he's still evolving

He's old enough, it's his maturity which needs to catch up

[Harry H]

C70R said:

I do feel quite sorry for him. Having known a lot of University friends who went on to top level sport (Olympians, pro football and rugby players), psychology in sport is a huge deal.

Little is told publicly about how much these guys go through mentally, even in the realms of injury recovery. Bottas, like a number of others on the grid, spent his pre-F1 career winning - that's why he's in a Merc.

He didn't come to F1 with the expectation of being a patsy for a teammate - his family, his engineers and his sports psychologists will be telling him that he can go out and win every weekend. How do you think he copes with the significant mental health ups and downs associated with that journey, particularly when his teammate is one of the all-time greats?

Yet the best level of sympathy that people can offer online is to criticise him, or to call him "broken". Look at the undeserved vitriol that he gets on Twitter and on his own Instagram account. Because he's a sportsman in the public eye, the internet seems to think they have some ownership over him.

Surely, with all of this in mind, he's allowed a small outburst every now and again? And, when reading this, perhaps some might realise Rosberg's motivations for quitting.

Not everyone can be like Kimi, who seems just happy to have something to do on the weekend and get a paycheque. Some of those guys out there are going through it mentally, and the internet isn't a kind place at all.

Just don't get this. He's paid £8 MILLION/year. Gets to drive not only A F1 car but THE F1 car. If he's unhappy stand aside and let one of the other million odd people in the queue behind him have a go.

I'd hate to have thousands of people watching me trying to do my job and perpetually criticise me but for £8 MILLION a year to drive an F1 car I think I could probably still manage it with a smile on my face. Good god if I had the money I'd pay them to let me have a punt. Lance Stroll does that and he still doesn't get to drive the best car on the grid.

If you're going to feel sorry for someone it's got to be the guys in the slower cars that genuinely believe they are better than Bottas (and I'm sure they all think they are) but don't get podiums because of the machinery they've been given.

Criticism comes with the job and the money. Did I mention £8 MILLION a year. It's tough at the top. Deal with it.

[C70R]

Harry H said:

C70R said:

I do feel quite sorry for him. Having known a lot of University friends who went on to top level sport (Olympians, pro football and rugby players), psychology in sport is a huge deal.

Little is told publicly about how much these guys go through mentally, even in the realms of injury recovery. Bottas, like a number of others on the grid, spent his pre-F1 career winning - that's why he's in a Merc.

He didn't come to F1 with the expectation of being a patsy for a teammate - his family, his engineers and his sports psychologists will be telling him that he can go out and win every weekend. How do you think he copes with the significant mental health ups and downs associated with that journey, particularly when his teammate is one of the all-time greats?

Yet the best level of sympathy that people can offer online is to criticise him, or to call him "broken". Look at the undeserved vitriol that he gets on Twitter and on his own Instagram account. Because he's a sportsman in the public eye, the internet seems to think they have some ownership over him.

Surely, with all of this in mind, he's allowed a small outburst every now and again? And, when reading this, perhaps some might realise Rosberg's motivations for quitting.

Not everyone can be like Kimi, who seems just happy to have something to do on the weekend and get a paycheque. Some of those guys out there are going through it mentally, and the internet isn't a kind place at all.

Just don't get this. He's paid £8 MILLION/year. Gets to drive not only A F1 car but THE F1 car. If he's unhappy stand aside and let one of the other million odd people in the queue behind him have a go.

I'd hate to have thousands of people watching me trying to do my job and perpetually criticise me but for £8 MILLION a year to drive an F1 car I think I could probably still manage it with a smile on my face. Good god if I had the money I'd pay them to let me have a punt. Lance Stroll does that and he still doesn't get to drive the best car on the grid.

If you're going to feel sorry for someone it's got to be the guys in the slower cars that genuinely believe they are better than Bottas (and I'm sure they all think they are) but don't get podiums because of the machinery they've been given.

Criticism comes with the job and the money. Did I mention £8 MILLION a year. It's tough at the top. Deal with it.

It's sad that you don't seem to understand much about mental health or sports psychology, but that's your problem rather than anyone else's.

Lots of rich people commit suicide every year because they are fundamentally unhappy. Thinking that money solves that unhappiness is naive in extremis.

It's usually the response of people who've never had a lot of money, or who've been fortunate never to experience the effects of mental health issues, to use such thoughtless, glib comments as "£8m means that he should just suck it up".

That's quite sad.

[Harry H]

C70R said:

It's sad that you don't seem to understand much about mental health or sports psychology, but that's your problem rather than anyone else's.

Lots of rich people commit suicide every year because they are fundamentally unhappy. Thinking that money solves that unhappiness is naive in extremis.

It's usually the response of people who've never had a lot of money, or who've been fortunate never to experience the effects of mental health issues, to use such thoughtless, glib comments as "£8m means that he should just suck it up".

That's quite sad.

I'm not pretending it's not tough but the guy has enough fame, money and privilege to never have to worry about it again. If he finds it hard going then do a Rosberg. I have no idea what's going on in Bottas's head but I give him the credit of him knowing when to walk away if he finds it too much. I certainly don't feel sorry for him. And I bet he doesn't want his psychologist to think that either, nor care about what we think.

The main difference between me and you is that I'm giving him more credit. He's a grown man that's reach the upper echelons of one of the most competitive, glamorous, highly paid sports in the world not a five year old that fails at a school sports day. The last thing he needs is people feeling sorry for him

Rosberg went up in my estimation when he walked. So many people that reach such great heights don't know when they've peaked.

Edited by Harry H on Tuesday 27th October 11:27

[Exige77]

Harry H said:

C70R said:

It's sad that you don't seem to understand much about mental health or sports psychology, but that's your problem rather than anyone else's.

Lots of rich people commit suicide every year because they are fundamentally unhappy. Thinking that money solves that unhappiness is naive in extremis.

It's usually the response of people who've never had a lot of money, or who've been fortunate never to experience the effects of mental health issues, to use such thoughtless, glib comments as "£8m means that he should just suck it up".

That's quite sad.

I'm not pretending it's not tough but the guy has enough fame, money and privilege to never have to worry about it again. If he finds it hard going then do a Rosberg. I have no idea what's going on in Bottas's head but I give him the credit of him knowing when to walk away if he finds it too much. I certainly don't feel sorry for him. And I bet he doesn't want his psychologist to think that either, nor care about what we think.

Rosberg went up in my estimation when he walked. So many people that reach such great heights don't know when they've peaked.

I think you’re missing the point.

Vettel has everything and look how his performance had dropped off because he’s stopped believing he’s the best.

Once you’ve got a few $M in the bank and never have to work again, it stops being about the money.

At that level you have to believe you’re the best and the acid test is to beat your team mate.

Bottas has and is trying very hard but he’s unlucky to be in the best car at a time when his team mate is possibly the best driver ever.

That’s got to sting a bit week after week.

All credit to him for picking himself up each week and again giving it his best shot the next week.

We shouldn’t feel sorry for him but at the same time maybe respect what he’s doing. Rosberg / Alonso could take it.

[Catatafish]

Was interesting that he was learning how to exploit the car and portimao track during the race.

I think he will likely acheive and hold the records for a long time, or potentially forever, should F1 collapse entirely in the future. For sure the sport has to transform itself enormously to remain relevant in the eco sensitive future. IF it stops being F1 as we know it Hamilton might just have bagged all of the choice records.

Max, as said elsewhere, has had 6 years of not winning titles, and not many races. To have a chance to match Hamilton, he would have had to at least matched Hamilton's progress over the first 6 years in F1.

[HighwayStar]

C70R said:

Harry H said:

C70R said:

I do feel quite sorry for him. Having known a lot of University friends who went on to top level sport (Olympians, pro football and rugby players), psychology in sport is a huge deal.

Little is told publicly about how much these guys go through mentally, even in the realms of injury recovery. Bottas, like a number of others on the grid, spent his pre-F1 career winning - that's why he's in a Merc.

He didn't come to F1 with the expectation of being a patsy for a teammate - his family, his engineers and his sports psychologists will be telling him that he can go out and win every weekend. How do you think he copes with the significant mental health ups and downs associated with that journey, particularly when his teammate is one of the all-time greats?

Yet the best level of sympathy that people can offer online is to criticise him, or to call him "broken". Look at the undeserved vitriol that he gets on Twitter and on his own Instagram account. Because he's a sportsman in the public eye, the internet seems to think they have some ownership over him.

Surely, with all of this in mind, he's allowed a small outburst every now and again? And, when reading this, perhaps some might realise Rosberg's motivations for quitting.

Not everyone can be like Kimi, who seems just happy to have something to do on the weekend and get a paycheque. Some of those guys out there are going through it mentally, and the internet isn't a kind place at all.

Just don't get this. He's paid £8 MILLION/year. Gets to drive not only A F1 car but THE F1 car. If he's unhappy stand aside and let one of the other million odd people in the queue behind him have a go.

I'd hate to have thousands of people watching me trying to do my job and perpetually criticise me but for £8 MILLION a year to drive an F1 car I think I could probably still manage it with a smile on my face. Good god if I had the money I'd pay them to let me have a punt. Lance Stroll does that and he still doesn't get to drive the best car on the grid.

If you're going to feel sorry for someone it's got to be the guys in the slower cars that genuinely believe they are better than Bottas (and I'm sure they all think they are) but don't get podiums because of the machinery they've been given.

Criticism comes with the job and the money. Did I mention £8 MILLION a year. It's tough at the top. Deal with it.

It's sad that you don't seem to understand much about mental health or sports psychology, but that's your problem rather than anyone else's.

Lots of rich people commit suicide every year because they are fundamentally unhappy. Thinking that money solves that unhappiness is naive in extremis.

It's usually the response of people who've never had a lot of money, or who've been fortunate never to experience the effects of mental health issues, to use such thoughtless, glib comments as "£8m means that he should just suck it up".

That's quite sad.

That’s so reminds me of Stan Collymore situation when he was at Aston Villa. Stan was suffering from depression and the manager, John Gregory, couldn’t understand it... he basically said, he’s a footballer earning lots of money. What’s he got to be depressed about.
Some people will never get the mental side of things. Of course no one saying VB is depressed. At the pinnacle of any sport belief in yourself, your own abilities and mental strength is paramount. Bottas wants to be a WDC. As do others. When he leaves the sport he can reflect and take stock. Yes he could say he’s made a lot of wedge but the major disappointment would be not winning a title.

[paulguitar]

Catatafish said:

Max, as said elsewhere, has had 6 years of not winning titles, and not many races. To have a chance to match Hamilton, he would have had to at least matched Hamilton's progress over the first 6 years in F1.

It's easy to forget how young Max is though. He started in F1 when he was 17!

[Bo_apex]

HustleRussell said:

Bo_apex said:

Probably still a bit too young and he's still evolving

He's old enough, it's his maturity which needs to catch up

He's fast enough.

[Bo_apex]

paulguitar said:

Catatafish said:

Max, as said elsewhere, has had 6 years of not winning titles, and not many races. To have a chance to match Hamilton, he would have had to at least matched Hamilton's progress over the first 6 years in F1.

It's easy to forget how young Max is though. He started in F1 when he was 17!

Extremely young and he's won more than the other Red Bull drivers.
If the RB becomes a contender it would get very interesting.
I think Max would be splitting the Mercs frequently if he was in the Racing Point.

[paulguitar]

Bo_apex said:

He's fast enough.

He's definitely fast enough. The incident with Stroll was a reminder though that he's still prone to red mist moments. That's a potentially big issue if you're fighting for titles.

[Bo_apex]

paulguitar said:

Bo_apex said:

He's fast enough.

He's definitely fast enough. The incident with Stroll was a reminder though that he's still prone to red mist moments. That's a potentially big issue if you're fighting for titles.

Yup.
Hamilton also has some red mist moments.
Barcelona 2016 for instance.
Everyone is human.

[Muzzer79]

Harry H said:

C70R said:

It's sad that you don't seem to understand much about mental health or sports psychology, but that's your problem rather than anyone else's.

Lots of rich people commit suicide every year because they are fundamentally unhappy. Thinking that money solves that unhappiness is naive in extremis.

It's usually the response of people who've never had a lot of money, or who've been fortunate never to experience the effects of mental health issues, to use such thoughtless, glib comments as "£8m means that he should just suck it up".

That's quite sad.

I'm not pretending it's not tough but the guy has enough fame, money and privilege to never have to worry about it again. If he finds it hard going then do a Rosberg. I have no idea what's going on in Bottas's head but I give him the credit of him knowing when to walk away if he finds it too much. I certainly don't feel sorry for him. And I bet he doesn't want his psychologist to think that either, nor care about what we think.

The main difference between me and you is that I'm giving him more credit. He's a grown man that's reach the upper echelons of one of the most competitive, glamorous, highly paid sports in the world not a five year old that fails at a school sports day. The last thing he needs is people feeling sorry for him

Rosberg went up in my estimation when he walked. So many people that reach such great heights don't know when they've peaked.

Edited by Harry H on Tuesday 27th October 11:27

Fame, money and privilege do not necessarily equal happiness.

Racing drivers don't get into it for the money, at least not the successful ones who reach the top. They get into it because they're super, super competitive and love driving.

You're probably right that he doesn't want or need sympathy but one can't help but feel for a guy who dominates practice and the first part of qualifying to only lose out in Q3 and the race.

But he won't get over that by looking at his bank balance or how many instagram followers he has. I have no doubt he'd drive that Mercedes for free if you could give him an extra two tenths per lap.

He'll get over it by not giving up.

[Muzzer79]

Bo_apex said:

paulguitar said:

Bo_apex said:

He's fast enough.

He's definitely fast enough. The incident with Stroll was a reminder though that he's still prone to red mist moments. That's a potentially big issue if you're fighting for titles.

Yup.
Hamilton also has some red mist moments.
Barcelona 2016 for instance.
Everyone is human.

Both Hamilton and Rosberg have had red mist moments in their careers. Barcelona 2016 wasn't one of them.

[HustleRussell]

Bo_apex said:

Yup.
Hamilton also has some red mist moments.
Barcelona 2016 for instance.
Everyone is human.

? Barcelona where Rosberg realized he was in the wrong engine mode and desperately drove at the inside of the track on a line which was not at all similar to the normal racing line to block Hamilton, who had seen him de-rating and already committed to the inside move?

I'd suggest you'd have to go much further back to find an example of a Hamilton 'red mist' moment, and you'll find nothing like the Vettel Baku sideswipe etc.

[C70R]

Harry H said:

C70R said:

It's sad that you don't seem to understand much about mental health or sports psychology, but that's your problem rather than anyone else's.

Lots of rich people commit suicide every year because they are fundamentally unhappy. Thinking that money solves that unhappiness is naive in extremis.

It's usually the response of people who've never had a lot of money, or who've been fortunate never to experience the effects of mental health issues, to use such thoughtless, glib comments as "£8m means that he should just suck it up".

That's quite sad.

I'm not pretending it's not tough but the guy has enough fame, money and privilege to never have to worry about it again. If he finds it hard going then do a Rosberg. I have no idea what's going on in Bottas's head but I give him the credit of him knowing when to walk away if he finds it too much. I certainly don't feel sorry for him. And I bet he doesn't want his psychologist to think that either, nor care about what we think.

The main difference between me and you is that I'm giving him more credit. He's a grown man that's reach the upper echelons of one of the most competitive, glamorous, highly paid sports in the world not a five year old that fails at a school sports day. The last thing he needs is people feeling sorry for him

Rosberg went up in my estimation when he walked. So many people that reach such great heights don't know when they've peaked.

Edited by Harry H on Tuesday 27th October 11:27

Again, you're completely misunderstanding how top level athletes are wired. These guys are coached from a ludicrously early age to believe that nothing is more important than winning in their sport. You don't get there without that attitude, and you certainly don't stay there for "the glamour".

It must have taken a Herculean effort for Rosberg to just walk away from F1, and we all know how rare it is for any athlete to leave any sport at their peak. Most elite sportspeople aren't doing it for the money, and they aren't simply looking at sport as an investment to walk away from when it suits them. This is their life. Most have known little else. Most are only driven to succeed and win.

I'm not asking you to be sympathetic, as you might a child who fell over at a school sports day. I'm asking you to be empathetic when talking about someone whose situation you clearly have absolutely no understanding of.

It's an often-used trope to claim that elite athletes are "arrogant"; when what you're seeing in reality is their only mechanism for remaining resilient.

[Bo_apex]

HustleRussell said:

Bo_apex said:

Yup.
Hamilton also has some red mist moments.
Barcelona 2016 for instance.
Everyone is human.

? Barcelona where Rosberg realized he was in the wrong engine mode and desperately drove at the inside of the track on a line which was not at all similar to the normal racing line to block Hamilton, who had seen him de-rating and already committed to the inside move?

I'd suggest you'd have to go much further back to find an example of a Hamilton 'red mist' moment, and you'll find nothing like the Vettel Baku sideswipe etc.

You disagree with Niki Lauda.
Lauda blamed Hamilton for that mistake and gave him a talking to afterwards.
There's a video interview with Niki about it.

[MarkwG]

Bo_apex said:

HustleRussell said:

Bo_apex said:

Yup.
Hamilton also has some red mist moments.
Barcelona 2016 for instance.
Everyone is human.

? Barcelona where Rosberg realized he was in the wrong engine mode and desperately drove at the inside of the track on a line which was not at all similar to the normal racing line to block Hamilton, who had seen him de-rating and already committed to the inside move?

I'd suggest you'd have to go much further back to find an example of a Hamilton 'red mist' moment, and you'll find nothing like the Vettel Baku sideswipe etc.

You disagree with Niki Lauda.
Lauda blamed Hamilton for that mistake and gave him a talking to afterwards.
There's a video interview with Niki about it.

Lauda actually said it was more Lewis than Nico, so a shared responsibility. He also said that Lewis's mistake was going inside, rather than outside when it was clear Nico was down of power. The "talking to" was a discussion with both of them, followed by an invite to Lewis to discuss it further to understand Laudas position.