Lewis Hamilton (Vol. 2)
Discussion
I'd not seen Karuns analysis...seems to agree with my view but i know its 1 man view, several other expert pundits have come with their own thoughts.
This was so marginal on blame that the experts can't agree so so it just turns to tribal views based on personal preferences before it even happened..
This was so marginal on blame that the experts can't agree so so it just turns to tribal views based on personal preferences before it even happened..
andburg said:
I'd not seen Karuns analysis...seems to agree with my view but i know its 1 man view, several other expert pundits have come with their own thoughts.
This was so marginal on blame that the experts can't agree so so it just turns to tribal views based on personal preferences before it even happened..
In which case it becomes a racing incident presumably?This was so marginal on blame that the experts can't agree so so it just turns to tribal views based on personal preferences before it even happened..
Wills2 said:
andyA700 said:
If as Horner was saying - "You can't overtake at Copse" - what was his reaction to Hamilton overtaking Leclerc at the same corner. I have been looking at the replay of both overtakes and both Verstappen and Leclerc accelerated after Hamilton overtook them - Max turned in though, causing a collision. Charles didn't and ran off the track.
Or when Albon went around the outside of Raikkonen last year... I'd say that despite the size of the accident, it was a racing incident - Leclerc did, Max didn't.
I'm reminded of what Senna said though, I can't remember the exact wording, but it was something like "I'll put my car here and if he wants to have an accident, that's up to him". A poor quote, but that was the gist.
I'm reminded of what Senna said though, I can't remember the exact wording, but it was something like "I'll put my car here and if he wants to have an accident, that's up to him". A poor quote, but that was the gist.
james_TW said:
I'd say that despite the size of the accident, it was a racing incident - Leclerc did, Max didn't.
I'm reminded of what Senna said though, I can't remember the exact wording, but it was something like "I'll put my car here and if he wants to have an accident, that's up to him". A poor quote, but that was the gist.
“Being a racing driver means you are racing with other people and if you no longer go for a gap that exists you are no longer a racing driver because we are competing.”I'm reminded of what Senna said though, I can't remember the exact wording, but it was something like "I'll put my car here and if he wants to have an accident, that's up to him". A poor quote, but that was the gist.
oyster said:
There seems to have been some thoughts that Hamilton has never needed to play a bit dirty - he’s gone up in my estimation today. A little bit of Schumi in him.
I dont understand this notion of the super clean racer Lewis, there has always been this dirtier side to him, he's just not needed to show it since the Rosberg days, so has built this squeaky clean image in the press.We've seen dubious and extreme driving / tactics from him, from the top of my head-
2007 Hungary Quali fuel saga with Alonso.
2012 Beligan tweets of team mates telemetry, Jenson Button- man that was a weird one!
2016 Abu Habi - backing up race into Rosberg.
I am sure there are some more. I think Lewis is just as mercenary as any driver whos been at that level, irrelevant of their 'reputation', its simply that Lewis hasn't had to show that side very much over the length of his career, but when he needs to, he definitely has and will push the boundaries of sportsmanship. Is that in any way suprising? I dont think so, it completely to be expected by a racing driver at this level.
Edited by gibbon on Monday 19th July 12:36
rscott said:
RB Will said:
Scolmore said:
And your take on Karun's analysis, which shows Max deliberately cutting Lewis off after initially steering to avoid?
Haven’t seen it, I dont have Sky So I’m not getting where you see the Max cutting Hamilton off? He says in the analysis that you can see Max turns away on corner entry to give him room, obviously he then has to turn in again if he wants to make the corner.
He says that Hamilton was not making the corner based on his line and missed the apex by some margin.
From what is shown and said in that analysis it seems to basically condemn Hamilton then gingerly call it a racing incident.
It is obvious seeing that that there are only 2 options, Hamilton messed up or he did it deliberately. If the latter than it is ban worthy.
RB Will said:
Ta for the link.
So I’m not getting where you see the Max cutting Hamilton off? He says in the analysis that you can see Max turns away on corner entry to give him room, obviously he then has to turn in again if he wants to make the corner.
He doesn't have to turn so much that there is a collision, though. Hamilton coud have chosen not to try to overtake there, Max could have chosen to not steer into him. Both had that choice, neither took it, which is why I agree with those who view it as nothing more than a racing incident.So I’m not getting where you see the Max cutting Hamilton off? He says in the analysis that you can see Max turns away on corner entry to give him room, obviously he then has to turn in again if he wants to make the corner.
Hamilton had a car width to his right that he could / should have used, verstappen had about four car widths to his left that he could / should have used.
In terms f how sensible each of them was being, I think a measured attempt to send it inside another car going into a corner is perfectly sensible. I think that turning in to where you've just seen a nother car to be is less so, and relies on the other driver doing something that you can't see them doing.
SeeFive said:
Graveworm said:
Is there any basis for what Toto is saying?
".. there is a clear regulation... If the front axle is over the middle of the car on the outside, it's your corner.
Not if you are Max ".. there is a clear regulation... If the front axle is over the middle of the car on the outside, it's your corner.
Regulation schmegulation, I’m the fastest, get out of my way, my corner, ouch.
RB Will said:
Ta for the link.
So I’m not getting where you see the Max cutting Hamilton off? He says in the analysis that you can see Max turns away on corner entry to give him room, obviously he then has to turn in again if he wants to make the corner.
He says that Hamilton was not making the corner based on his line and missed the apex by some margin.
From what is shown and said in that analysis it seems to basically condemn Hamilton then gingerly call it a racing incident.
It is obvious seeing that that there are only 2 options, Hamilton messed up or he did it deliberately. If the latter than it is ban worthy.
When was the last time a driver was banned for causing a collision? There are divided opinions amongst "Impartial" experts as to whether it was even a penalty. That's not actually the analysis that shows Max having a jink in. That came post race. He doesn't say Hamilton was not making the corner. It looks like, from that footage, that Lewis front axle was past the mid point of the Red Bull at the entry so, from what was posted earlier, that apparently makes it the inside car's corner. So I’m not getting where you see the Max cutting Hamilton off? He says in the analysis that you can see Max turns away on corner entry to give him room, obviously he then has to turn in again if he wants to make the corner.
He says that Hamilton was not making the corner based on his line and missed the apex by some margin.
From what is shown and said in that analysis it seems to basically condemn Hamilton then gingerly call it a racing incident.
It is obvious seeing that that there are only 2 options, Hamilton messed up or he did it deliberately. If the latter than it is ban worthy.
Edited by Graveworm on Monday 19th July 12:55
james_TW said:
I'd say that despite the size of the accident, it was a racing incident - Leclerc did, Max didn't.
I'm reminded of what Senna said though, I can't remember the exact wording, but it was something like "I'll put my car here and if he wants to have an accident, that's up to him". A poor quote, but that was the gist.
I don't think Senna said that, but I do think Brundle (possibly) said it to describe Senna's approach.I'm reminded of what Senna said though, I can't remember the exact wording, but it was something like "I'll put my car here and if he wants to have an accident, that's up to him". A poor quote, but that was the gist.
Graveworm said:
When was the last time a driver was banned for causing a collision? That's not actually the analysis that shows Max having a jink in. That came post race. He doesn't say Hamilton was not making the corner. It looks like, from that footage, that Lewis front axle was past the mid point of the Red Bull at the entry so, from what was posted earlier, that apparently makes it the inside car's corner.
Grosjean, Spa 2012 probably.Northernboy said:
He doesn't have to turn so much that there is a collision, though. Hamilton coud have chosen not to try to overtake there, Max could have chosen to not steer into him. Both had that choice, neither took it, which is why I agree with those who view it as nothing more than a racing incident.
Hamilton had a car width to his right that he could / should have used, verstappen had about four car widths to his left that he could / should have used.
In terms f how sensible each of them was being, I think a measured attempt to send it inside another car going into a corner is perfectly sensible. I think that turning in to where you've just seen a nother car to be is less so, and relies on the other driver doing something that you can't see them doing.
i think the question is;Hamilton had a car width to his right that he could / should have used, verstappen had about four car widths to his left that he could / should have used.
In terms f how sensible each of them was being, I think a measured attempt to send it inside another car going into a corner is perfectly sensible. I think that turning in to where you've just seen a nother car to be is less so, and relies on the other driver doing something that you can't see them doing.
at the point Verstappen turned in again (much more steering angle applied) did Hamilton have enough grip to do the same, given he was understeering on a tighter line the answer is no.
The fact the spin took a tyre out and left max to hit the wall is after the fact. If the tyre remained on and he'd managed to rejoin 5th/6th red bull would have been happier with 10s penalty. You penalise the infraction not the result of it.
kiseca said:
james_TW said:
I'd say that despite the size of the accident, it was a racing incident - Leclerc did, Max didn't.
I'm reminded of what Senna said though, I can't remember the exact wording, but it was something like "I'll put my car here and if he wants to have an accident, that's up to him". A poor quote, but that was the gist.
I don't think Senna said that, but I do think Brundle (possibly) said it to describe Senna's approach.I'm reminded of what Senna said though, I can't remember the exact wording, but it was something like "I'll put my car here and if he wants to have an accident, that's up to him". A poor quote, but that was the gist.
I never like to see anyone hurt....and that was a very dangerous impact...but...my thoughts are...in a nutshell..
Hamilton (kinda rightly IMO) has now said "i'm not going to back out of these situations any more".
It sends a message to Max that he can't just steam through any more. Or rather, he can and probably will (i can't see him changing anything about the way he drives) but he will now encounter resistance from Lewis if/when it happens.
In a way, Lewis drove like Max yesterday. I'm coming through. Move or we will crash.
Well, they did crash. Both could have been taken out but in this instance it was Max and badly.
Overall - i think this adds up to a potentially hopefully very exciting second half of the season (if the cars are as equal as they can be)
We want entertainment, do we not?
Are we not entertained?!
Hamilton (kinda rightly IMO) has now said "i'm not going to back out of these situations any more".
It sends a message to Max that he can't just steam through any more. Or rather, he can and probably will (i can't see him changing anything about the way he drives) but he will now encounter resistance from Lewis if/when it happens.
In a way, Lewis drove like Max yesterday. I'm coming through. Move or we will crash.
Well, they did crash. Both could have been taken out but in this instance it was Max and badly.
Overall - i think this adds up to a potentially hopefully very exciting second half of the season (if the cars are as equal as they can be)
We want entertainment, do we not?
Are we not entertained?!
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