Lewis Hamilton (Vol. 2)

[glazbagun]

Chamon_Lee said:

2 things came to mind regarding LH:

1) Do people think Max/AD situation has mentally stayed with LH and affecting his performance?
2) Does he need a change to say something like Ferrari to just get a fresh new enviornment? Granted it's better to see what Merc come out with next year but for 2024 it might be time for a change if it still looks like a flop?

While I think his restart was poor, I think he's still doing well given Russell's talent and ambition. A few safety cars and things would look different. He also traditionally starts fairly poorly compared to later in the year.

Re: a team move, I think he's Mercedes for life. Wasn't his last contract held up because he wanted a share of the team? I don't know how hands on he is with his E sports team, but he's had a long career in some of the best F1 teams, so I can envisage him being around in some form forever, just as Prost periodically makes an appearance.

[RB Will]

48Valves said:

mat205125 said:

It would be a huge kudos to do what Michael did, and what Seb and Fernando tried, but couldn't achieve

He did. But at Mercedes not Ferrari!

How much did he do? The Merc was already a front running car when he got there wasn't it? Podiums for Rosberg and Schumacher and a race win for Rosberg?

[paulguitar]

RB Will said:

How much did he do? The Merc was already a front running car when he got there wasn't it? Podiums for Rosberg and Schumacher and a race win for Rosberg?

The 2013 Merc was very rarely a front-running car. His decision to go there was roundly ridiculed.

[g4ry13]

RB Will said:

48Valves said:

mat205125 said:

It would be a huge kudos to do what Michael did, and what Seb and Fernando tried, but couldn't achieve

He did. But at Mercedes not Ferrari!

How much did he do? The Merc was already a front running car when he got there wasn't it? Podiums for Rosberg and Schumacher and a race win for Rosberg?

Let's not forget that Mercedes was the rebranded one season wonder Brawn GP team which won the Drivers & Constructors championship.

Mercedes had some success with Rosberg and Schumacher in the years after. In his first Mercedes season (2013) Lewis finished in 4th position.

2014 saw a move to V6 engines where Mercedes produced a dominant engine and due to cost cutting / engine freezes their competitors struggled to close the gap and the advantage was locked in for subsequent seasons. The rest is history as we know.

[Megaflow]

paulguitar said:

StRemy said:

The fact that some people here are so resentful about his comments may clearly indicate that there is some true to them though.

Martin Brundle on this:

'Fernando's radio comments, albeit fuelled by anger and adrenaline, about Lewis only being able to win from the front were in my opinion wholly inaccurate and unfair. Lewis is one of the fairest and cleanest drivers in the history of F1, he hasn't needed to resort to too many professional fouls given his relentless speed, and just cast your mind back to Brazil last year to remember how he can scythe through the field. Twice.'

Also see Turkey 2006.

[rscott]

g4ry13 said:

RB Will said:

48Valves said:

mat205125 said:

It would be a huge kudos to do what Michael did, and what Seb and Fernando tried, but couldn't achieve

He did. But at Mercedes not Ferrari!

How much did he do? The Merc was already a front running car when he got there wasn't it? Podiums for Rosberg and Schumacher and a race win for Rosberg?

Let's not forget that Mercedes was the rebranded one season wonder Brawn GP team which won the Drivers & Constructors championship.

Mercedes had some success with Rosberg and Schumacher in the years after. In his first Mercedes season (2013) Lewis finished in 4th position.

2014 saw a move to V6 engines where Mercedes produced a dominant engine and due to cost cutting / engine freezes their competitors struggled to close the gap and the advantage was locked in for subsequent seasons. The rest is history as we know.

Although none of the other cars using that engine were particularly successfull

[g4ry13]

rscott said:

g4ry13 said:

RB Will said:

48Valves said:

mat205125 said:

It would be a huge kudos to do what Michael did, and what Seb and Fernando tried, but couldn't achieve

He did. But at Mercedes not Ferrari!

How much did he do? The Merc was already a front running car when he got there wasn't it? Podiums for Rosberg and Schumacher and a race win for Rosberg?

Let's not forget that Mercedes was the rebranded one season wonder Brawn GP team which won the Drivers & Constructors championship.

Mercedes had some success with Rosberg and Schumacher in the years after. In his first Mercedes season (2013) Lewis finished in 4th position.

2014 saw a move to V6 engines where Mercedes produced a dominant engine and due to cost cutting / engine freezes their competitors struggled to close the gap and the advantage was locked in for subsequent seasons. The rest is history as we know.

Although none of the other cars using that engine were particularly successfull

Did they have the full fat engine or was it more of a diet customer engine? Much like Ferrari don't give their customers the same engines as they run in the red cars.

[Clockwork Cupcake]

paulguitar said:

RB Will said:

How much did he do? The Merc was already a front running car when he got there wasn't it? Podiums for Rosberg and Schumacher and a race win for Rosberg?

The 2013 Merc was very rarely a front-running car. His decision to go there was roundly ridiculed.

Absolutely. I remember saying at the time that I thought he was mad to be moving from McLaren to Mercedes-Benz and that I could only assume that he was gambling on M-B being competitive with the 2014 regulations and that he was clearly writing off 2013 as a lost cause and what a huge gamble it was.

Then bugger me if McLaren didn't completely arse up the 2013 season.

I was right about M-B being competitive with the 2014 regulations though.

[carl_w]

rscott said:

Although none of the other cars using that engine were particularly successfull

Williams were 3rd in the championship...

[HighwayStar]

carl_w said:

rscott said:

Although none of the other cars using that engine were particularly successfull

Williams were 3rd in the championship...

Behind RedBull and less than half the points of Mercedes. Merc aced the hybrid power unit but it’s the overall package that gets the job done.
RedBull’s sister team with the same power unit doesn’t have Alpha Tauri ahead of Merc and Ferrari and tussling with the mothership for the top step.

[rscott]

g4ry13 said:

rscott said:

g4ry13 said:

RB Will said:

48Valves said:

mat205125 said:

It would be a huge kudos to do what Michael did, and what Seb and Fernando tried, but couldn't achieve

He did. But at Mercedes not Ferrari!

How much did he do? The Merc was already a front running car when he got there wasn't it? Podiums for Rosberg and Schumacher and a race win for Rosberg?

Let's not forget that Mercedes was the rebranded one season wonder Brawn GP team which won the Drivers & Constructors championship.

Mercedes had some success with Rosberg and Schumacher in the years after. In his first Mercedes season (2013) Lewis finished in 4th position.

2014 saw a move to V6 engines where Mercedes produced a dominant engine and due to cost cutting / engine freezes their competitors struggled to close the gap and the advantage was locked in for subsequent seasons. The rest is history as we know.

Although none of the other cars using that engine were particularly successfull

Did they have the full fat engine or was it more of a diet customer engine? Much like Ferrari don't give their customers the same engines as they run in the red cars.

Don't the rules require customers to have access to the same engines as the manufacturer?

[whatxd]

48Valves said:

mat205125 said:

It would be a huge kudos to do what Michael did, and what Seb and Fernando tried, but couldn't achieve

He did. But at Mercedes not Ferrari!

There's no comparison whatsoever. It doesn't matter what Hamilton did or didn't do for the 2013 season, the Mercedes would still have been the most dominant car in 2014 by some distance. The personnel, the development of the v6, the financing, it was all already in place and Hamilton was in the right place at the right time.

When Schumacher went to Ferrari, almost nothing other than the finance and Jean Todd was in place. In 1996, they were not set up to dominate in the early 00's. In 2013, Mercedes were set up to dominate in 2014.

[anonymous-user]

Mercedes went after Lewis because he was the best talent on the grid, it's that simple.

They paid most of his salary at McLaren and funded his early years too.

[TobyTR]

paulguitar said:

RB Will said:

How much did he do? The Merc was already a front running car when he got there wasn't it? Podiums for Rosberg and Schumacher and a race win for Rosberg?

The 2013 Merc was very rarely a front-running car. His decision to go there was roundly ridiculed.

No it wasn't. Mercedes had consistently the second-best car in 2013 and they were on the up from 2012 after Rosberg took a race win and multiple podiums. Ross Brawn and co had already laid the foundations for a successful team long before 2013 and it was paying dividends.

Martin Brundle and others pointed out with the hybrid regs for 2014 and Mercedes' long-term vision for these regs it could be a shrewd move. Plus they were a full factory/works team and were always going to have superior resources to McLaren who were using Mercedes customer engines at the time.

Nothing remotely comparable to what Schumacher achieved at Ferrari where the foundations weren't in place in 1996.

Hamilton was the best available driver for Mercedes at the time. Vettel and Alonso (who both had consistently beat Hamilton 2010-2013) were both committed to long-term deals. People forget Hamilton had a relatively mediocre 2009-2012 (by his standards) and didn't even finish runner-up in the WDC in any of those years. Even Jenson Button finished runner-up in 2011.

Edited by TobyTR on Tuesday 6th September 09:19

[paulguitar]

TobyTR said:

paulguitar said:

RB Will said:

How much did he do? The Merc was already a front running car when he got there wasn't it? Podiums for Rosberg and Schumacher and a race win for Rosberg?

The 2013 Merc was very rarely a front-running car. His decision to go there was roundly ridiculed.

No it wasn't.

Yes, it was. You either don't remember the pasting Hamilton got for that decision, or you're pretending not to remember! Many people here will fill you in...

TobyTR said:

They were on the up from 2012 after Rosberg took a race win and multiple podiums. Ross Brawn and co had already laid the foundations for a successful team long before 2013 and it was paying dividends.

In 2012 the Mercedes drivers finished 9th (Rosbeg) and 13th (Schumacher) in the standings.

TobyTR said:

Vettel and Alonso (who both had consistently beat Hamilton 2010-2013) were both committed to long-term deals. People forget Hamilton had a relatively mediocre 2009-2012 (by his standards) and didn't even finish runner-up in the WDC in any of those years. Even Jenson Button finished runner-up in 2011.

Interesting article about Hamilton's 2009-2012 here:

https://the-race.com/formula-1/mark-hughes-what-ha...

[Muzzer79]

paulguitar said:

TobyTR said:

paulguitar said:

RB Will said:

How much did he do? The Merc was already a front running car when he got there wasn't it? Podiums for Rosberg and Schumacher and a race win for Rosberg?

The 2013 Merc was very rarely a front-running car. His decision to go there was roundly ridiculed.

No it wasn't.

Yes, it was. You either don't remember the pasting Hamilton got for that decision, or you're pretending not to remember! Many people here will fill you in...

TobyTR said:

They were on the up from 2012 after Rosberg took a race win and multiple podiums. Ross Brawn and co had already laid the foundations for a successful team long before 2013 and it was paying dividends.

In 2012 the Mercedes drivers finished 9th (Rosbeg) and 13th (Schumacher) in the standings.

TobyTR said:

Vettel and Alonso (who both had consistently beat Hamilton 2010-2013) were both committed to long-term deals. People forget Hamilton had a relatively mediocre 2009-2012 (by his standards) and didn't even finish runner-up in the WDC in any of those years. Even Jenson Button finished runner-up in 2011.

Interesting article about Hamilton's 2009-2012 here:

https://the-race.com/formula-1/mark-hughes-what-ha...

The truth is somewhere in between these views.

Mercedes did have a pretty rubbish 2012. McLaren finished 3rd in the Constructors that year (just behind Ferrari) with Mercedes a distant 5th.

Rosberg did take their first win of the new era, but this was the year where we had 7 different winners in the first 7 races (including Pastor Maldonado) due to the odd tyre characteristics. He only had 1 other podium and only 6 other top ten finishes.

Less said about Schumacher, the better.

So to say they were "on the up" isn't correct. Hamilton was widely acknowledged to be taking a huge risk jumping from a team with 7 race wins in 2012, to one that was struggling to get on the podium.


But 2013 was a lot better. They solved a lot of their tyre issues, had 3 more wins and finished 2nd in the constructors'

Obviously Hamilton only arrived at the beginning of the year so he wasn't a foundation of this new success, nor did he push through the lean years there like Schumacher did at Ferrari, but he was a key part of the team like all drivers are. His presence will have elevated the team.

So people should not discredit his achievements. You don't have to "do a Schumacher" to be considered great and you certainly don't have to do it at Ferrari, like some people bizarrely think.

[TobyTR]

paulguitar said:

Interesting article about Hamilton's 2009-2012 here:

https://the-race.com/formula-1/mark-hughes-what-ha...

I don't need many arm-chair warriors to fill me in on here when Brundle said what he said above and so did a few other experts. How can you think a team like McLaren running customer Mercedes engines will compete in the hybrid era against a factory/works team?... They can't. It's not like the V10 era where McLaren had sole Mercedes works backing and huge cigarette and alcohol sponsorship flowing in... nice to see you backed off about Merc not having a front-running car in 2013

that article even says as much: "In the Singapore hotel after the race he made his decision to switch to Mercedes. He’d already been primed by Ross Brawn, who convinced him just how heavily Mercedes was investing in the new hybrid formula and how important it would be in this era to be a works team rather than a customer (which McLaren no longer was, thanks in large part to Brawn!)."

Edited by TobyTR on Tuesday 6th September 22:03

[Clockwork Cupcake]

TobyTR said:

I don't need many arm-chair warriors to fill me in on here when Brundle said what he said above and so did a few other experts. How can you think a team like McLaren running customer Mercedes engines will compete in the hybrid era against a factory/works team?... They can't. It's not like the V10 era where McLaren had sole Mercedes works backing and huge cigarette and alcohol sponsorship flowing in... nice to see you backed off about Merc not having a front-running car in 2013

[TobyTR]

Clockwork Cupcake said:

TobyTR said:

I don't need many arm-chair warriors to fill me in on here when Brundle said what he said above and so did a few other experts. How can you think a team like McLaren running customer Mercedes engines will compete in the hybrid era against a factory/works team?... They can't. It's not like the V10 era where McLaren had sole Mercedes works backing and huge cigarette and alcohol sponsorship flowing in... nice to see you backed off about Merc not having a front-running car in 2013

the truth hurts, eh CC. You can roll your eyes as much as you want.

[paulguitar]

TobyTR said:

I don't need many arm-chair warriors to fill me in on here when Brundle said what he said above and so did a few other experts.

The reaction to the move was mostly negative. Many experts through Hamilton was going primarily for a big payday. Particularly amusing to read this one now:

“Lewis Hamilton does not know much about racing history and so cannot learn from the mistakes of others. Perhaps he thinks that if it fails he will at least have the consolation of earning loads more money and being a bigger star, thanks to his hustling management that will sell his image here, there and everywhere. That might make him an international celebrity on a bigger scale than he is, but it will not make him a racing legend. Perhaps Mercedes will pull it off and then Hamilton will look clever, but I fear that this will be a move similar to James Hunt joining Wolf; Emerson Fittipaldi joining Fittipaldi, Jacques Villeneuve moving to BAR or Niki Lauda’s ill-fated move to Brabham. History relates that you do not leave a winning team in F1 unless it is to go to another proven winner…” - Joe Saward

TobyTR said:

nice to see you backed off about Merc not having a front-running car in 2013

In 2013 Mercedes won three of nineteen races. The car was rarely front-running.

Hamilton was mostly thinking about the hybrid era and it worked out very well. That doesn't change the fact that he went to a team that was not particularly strong.