Lewis Hamilton (Vol. 2)
Discussion
maz8062 said:
Can you imagine Alonso being asked to “test” and give way to Lance stroll to attack the cars ahead for points? Can you imagine it, when F1 drivers live to win first, beat their team mate second? No of course not, but when it comes to LH testing while his team mate grabs the points to extend his lead it is fair game. We have different definitions of ridicule but I’m happy with mine, thanks.
I don't need to imagine it. See last year's Spanish GP.If Alonso had developed that team ethic earlier in his career, he may have a few more WDCs rather than bouncing from team to team blowing everything up. And I say that as something of a fan.
maz8062 said:
A lot of folk don’t understand how these things work. You’re looking forward and backwards rather than concentrating on today. Out of the races so far he’s been out-qualified 3-1. Races 3-0. He has 10 points to GR’s 24 (Max has 77) He’s flailing. If he is no longer the future of the team as he’s off somewhere else and if his performances continue in this vein, how long will it take before commentators will start asking if/when he’ll be dropped. There is so much at stake, LH has to deliver today because reputations of powerful people are at stake, bonuses, prize money etc. etc.
Yes he has done the right thing for himself but what about Merc? Has he done the right thing for them and how will this pan out for the next 20 races. Honestly if you think LH can continue with this form for the next 20 races without getting lambasted and ridiculed, you haven’t been following F1 long enough. It’s brutal.
If you seriously think that Mercedes will even consider dropping the most successful F1 driver of all time, after 3 races and face the prospect of paying him a strong 8 figure sum to not drive for them for the rest of the year, replacing him with Mick Schumacher or similar then you're insane.Yes he has done the right thing for himself but what about Merc? Has he done the right thing for them and how will this pan out for the next 20 races. Honestly if you think LH can continue with this form for the next 20 races without getting lambasted and ridiculed, you haven’t been following F1 long enough. It’s brutal.
You mentioned history earlier......how many champions, seasoned winning drivers, let alone multiple WDC's have been dropped mid-season in the modern era?
Prost, arguably, in 1991. And that was at the end of the season with nothing much left to play for.
Christ, Damon Hill flat out told Eddie Jordan that he wanted out in 1999, following several mediocre races and a loss of desire. Eddie wouldn't let him leave due to sponsor commitments.
What on earth makes you think that Toto will call Petronas with a plan to drop Hamilton and expect a positive response?
It's a bonkers notion.
maz8062 said:
MustangGT said:
maz8062 said:
A 7 x WDC “testing” - if that’s not ridicule I don’t know what is.
I have to agree with you, you do not know what ridicule is.What is difficult to understand about that?
Purosangue said:
from a chap who says ...........I have been watching F1 from the 1980s .............then in the next breath , ive really only been following since 2007 ?
So what is it you turned on the tv in the 80s watched a bit of F1 , got bored then in 2007 you had a F1 epiphany and are now telling everyone
"A lot of folk don’t understand how these things work " why have i got a mental picture of you sat in a pub , with a flat cap , and a cardigan
there aren't enough of these home made memes these days good job
So what is it you turned on the tv in the 80s watched a bit of F1 , got bored then in 2007 you had a F1 epiphany and are now telling everyone
"A lot of folk don’t understand how these things work " why have i got a mental picture of you sat in a pub , with a flat cap , and a cardigan
there aren't enough of these home made memes these days good jobmaz8062 said:
MustangGT said:
maz8062 said:
F
A 7 x WDC “testing” - if that’s not ridicule I don’t know what is.
A 7 x WDC “testing” - if that’s not ridicule I don’t know what is.
Damp Logs said:
I very rarely comment on this thread as I am FAR from an expert, and I don’t want to get involved in arguments. (I’ve only watched F1 since early 70s)
Am I right in thinking Lewis tends to start the season slowly and improve after a few races??
He has been less on the limit early on in the season at times, some of that will be the engineering team learning how the car works and dialing it in. It's often the case in such long seasons now, that the teams pecking order can change significantly throughout the season, McLaren being the most obvious example last year. Based on Maz, Norris and Piastri should be on the dole now, not running up front.Am I right in thinking Lewis tends to start the season slowly and improve after a few races??
maz8062 said:
Can you imagine Alonso being asked to “test” and give way to Lance stroll to attack the cars ahead for points? Can you imagine it, when F1 drivers live to win first, beat their team mate second? No of course not, but when it comes to LH testing while his team mate grabs the points to extend his lead it is fair game. We have different definitions of ridicule but I’m happy with mine, thanks.
Have you ever engineeed a racing car to win anything?It's what i do for a living.
I've worked with some of the best drivers including world champions. The really good ones have no ego when you are working hard to make a car work better, it's focused engineering based work.
What is stated in public by the drivers and more often now the TP ( as the press like to ask them dull questions) is 90% bulls
t.540TORQUES said:
maz8062 said:
Can you imagine Alonso being asked to “test” and give way to Lance stroll to attack the cars ahead for points? Can you imagine it, when F1 drivers live to win first, beat their team mate second? No of course not, but when it comes to LH testing while his team mate grabs the points to extend his lead it is fair game. We have different definitions of ridicule but I’m happy with mine, thanks.
Have you ever engineeed a racing car to win anything?It's what i do for a living.
I've worked with some of the best drivers including world champions. The really good ones have no ego when you are working hard to make a car work better, it's focused engineering based work.
What is stated in public by the drivers and more often now the TP ( as the press like to ask them dull questions) is 90% bulls
t.It’s been a lesson.
maz8062 said:
You know, I’m one of LH’s staunchest fans, have been since 2007, yet here I am being attacked by LH fans. I guess now I understand what it’s like to dare say a bad word about LH.
It’s been a lesson.
Isn’t it you that claims to be a fan of LH but all of your posts about him are really negative? It’s been a lesson.
If there is a lesson to learn, maybe it’s just to do posts that are a bit more sensible. What you’ve had to say over the last couple of days has been genuinely strange.
maz8062 said:
540TORQUES said:
maz8062 said:
Can you imagine Alonso being asked to “test” and give way to Lance stroll to attack the cars ahead for points? Can you imagine it, when F1 drivers live to win first, beat their team mate second? No of course not, but when it comes to LH testing while his team mate grabs the points to extend his lead it is fair game. We have different definitions of ridicule but I’m happy with mine, thanks.
Have you ever engineeed a racing car to win anything?It's what i do for a living.
I've worked with some of the best drivers including world champions. The really good ones have no ego when you are working hard to make a car work better, it's focused engineering based work.
What is stated in public by the drivers and more often now the TP ( as the press like to ask them dull questions) is 90% bulls
t.It’s been a lesson.
We’re not talking about George being light years ahead of him after 4 races. Russell isn’t anywhere near the podium. Merc in general are performing poorly.
You have an opinion, which of course you’re entitled to. You expressed it in a forum. I don’t see anyone attacking you. Just others disagreeing with you, which they entitled to. They don’t see it your way… what’s the problem with that? You maybe right but as a Lewis fan, following him since 2007, I would have thought you’d have more faith. Let’s just see how the season turns out, rather than going round and round.
maz8062 said:
You know, I’m one of LH’s staunchest fans, have been since 2007, yet here I am being attacked by LH fans. I guess now I understand what it’s like to dare say a bad word about LH.
It’s been a lesson.
I have probably been guilty of challenging you in fairness so sorry if I offended.It’s been a lesson.
My issue is not your opinion per se. It's how absolutely confident you are of the outcome already and how authoritative you sound. For a fan, you really have lost faith very quickly.
Damp Logs said:
I very rarely comment on this thread as I am FAR from an expert, and I don’t want to get involved in arguments. (I’ve only watched F1 since early 70s)
Am I right in thinking Lewis tends to start the season slowly and improve after a few races??
Yep. It happens every year that half the internet spend the first several races of the season predicting that this is the year that he’s gone over the hill. This is the season that his team-mate will beat him. It seems to be a kind of wishful thinking! I don’t envy these people because they are so often wrong and don’t seem to have the capacity to recognise this pattern and remember it one season to the next. Am I right in thinking Lewis tends to start the season slowly and improve after a few races??
Meanwhile, Hamilton out-qualifies Mr. Saturday for the first time this season by a quarter of a second.
Nobody seems to fantasise about Alonso’s performance declining even though he’s three and a half years older.
Tbh I don't think you can ever judge a driver too harshly in the year before they leave (announced leaving or not)
We simply don't know how much they are being frozen out. IMO it sounds like LH is being alienated from data but is mucking in by mutual agreement (again my opinion)
Lets look at Vettels final year at RB
[quote]He signed off the year by becoming the first defending champion to fail to win a race during a season since Jacques Villeneuve in 1998. In October, Red Bull had announced that Vettel would be leaving the team at the end of the season to join Scuderia Ferrari, one year before his contract was due to expire.
[/quote]
If LH had jumped ship after GR joined you could replace LH with SV
SV season round up:
[quote]Whilst 2013 proved to be a record year for Vettel and Red Bull, the Austrian team would notably start on the backfoot for the 2014 season. With Mark Webber retiring at the end of 2013, his position in the team was replaced by fellow Australian driver, the young Daniel Ricciardo who like Vettel had arrived in the team, after impressing in the secondary Red Bull team, Toro Rosso. Pre-season testing was difficult for the Red Bull outfit, the new chassis proved highly unreliable in the opening test in Jerez. Whilst the team's reliability improved by the Bahrain tests, Vettel and Red Bull had not conducted much testing in comparison to many of their rivals.
It was evident that Vettel was struggling upon arriving for the first race in Australia. Vettel suffered performance issues throughout qualifying and could only manage a dismal thirteenth on the grid. Teammate Ricciardo faired much better, starting the grid from second position at his home race and first for Red Bull. Vettel's race would end prematurely after only three laps due to an engine failure. Ricciardo would go on to finish the race in second position, yet was disqualified due to a fuel irregularity, meaning Red Bull failed to score any points in the opening race of the season.
There was an improvement for Vettel going into the second round in Malaysia. Vettel narrowly missed out on pole position by a few tenths of a second to the Mercedes of Lewis Hamilton. Vettel, however made a poor getaway at the start, dropping to fourth behind the second Mercedes of Nico Rosberg and teammate Daniel Ricciardo. After a tight battle with Ricciardo, Vettel was able to muscle his way ahead of his younger teammate back into third position. Vettel would remain in third for the remainder of the race, powerless to challenge the superior Mercedes chassis, finishing behind Hamilton and Rosberg in the race.
Vettel suffered another disappointing qualifying in Bahrain, managing only a eleventh position. Teammate Ricciardo faired better to go third fastest, however due to a grid penalty, he dropped to thirteenth on the grid. At the start Vettel was able to make up places on the grid in the opening laps, however his charge was halted when he became stuck behind the Force India of Nico Hülkenberg in fourth position. This allowed teammate Ricciardo to close upon Vettel, the team then ordering Vettel to let Ricciardo through due his faster track times. Ricciardo then managed to dispose of Hülkenberg for fourth place. Vettel would finish the race in sixth place.
The Red Bull's proved to be much more competitive in China during the qualifying session, Vettel started the race from third on the grid, narrowly being beaten by Ricciardo who took second position. At the start, Vettel made a strong getaway climbing to second position behind the Mercedes of Lewis Hamilton. Despite strong initial pace, Vettel proved to be less competitive than the cars behind him, losing places to Nico Rosberg and Fernando Alonso. Vettel once again found himself in an intense duel with teammate Ricciardo. Despite being instructed for the second race in succession by Red Bull management to let Ricciardo through, Vettel responded over the team radio with "tough luck" and refused to make way for Ricciardo. On lap 25, Ricciardo proceeded to overtake Vettel anyway for fourth position. Vettel would finish the race directly behind Ricciardo in fifth.
Through out 2014 Vettel suffered two retirements in Monaco and Austria with more reliability issues and failing to achieve a podium finish since Canada up until his best result (a 2ND place) in Singapore and a 3RD place in Japan, he finishes the year in 5TH place ending his reign as champion. This was the first time since his debut that he failed to win a race.
[/qoute]
End of season
DR - 238
SV - 167
That's the closest I can find to a recent multiple WDC leaving a team one year before their contract ends
I could be wrong though. I couldn't care less though
We simply don't know how much they are being frozen out. IMO it sounds like LH is being alienated from data but is mucking in by mutual agreement (again my opinion)
Lets look at Vettels final year at RB
[quote]He signed off the year by becoming the first defending champion to fail to win a race during a season since Jacques Villeneuve in 1998. In October, Red Bull had announced that Vettel would be leaving the team at the end of the season to join Scuderia Ferrari, one year before his contract was due to expire.
[/quote]
If LH had jumped ship after GR joined you could replace LH with SV
SV season round up:
[quote]Whilst 2013 proved to be a record year for Vettel and Red Bull, the Austrian team would notably start on the backfoot for the 2014 season. With Mark Webber retiring at the end of 2013, his position in the team was replaced by fellow Australian driver, the young Daniel Ricciardo who like Vettel had arrived in the team, after impressing in the secondary Red Bull team, Toro Rosso. Pre-season testing was difficult for the Red Bull outfit, the new chassis proved highly unreliable in the opening test in Jerez. Whilst the team's reliability improved by the Bahrain tests, Vettel and Red Bull had not conducted much testing in comparison to many of their rivals.
It was evident that Vettel was struggling upon arriving for the first race in Australia. Vettel suffered performance issues throughout qualifying and could only manage a dismal thirteenth on the grid. Teammate Ricciardo faired much better, starting the grid from second position at his home race and first for Red Bull. Vettel's race would end prematurely after only three laps due to an engine failure. Ricciardo would go on to finish the race in second position, yet was disqualified due to a fuel irregularity, meaning Red Bull failed to score any points in the opening race of the season.
There was an improvement for Vettel going into the second round in Malaysia. Vettel narrowly missed out on pole position by a few tenths of a second to the Mercedes of Lewis Hamilton. Vettel, however made a poor getaway at the start, dropping to fourth behind the second Mercedes of Nico Rosberg and teammate Daniel Ricciardo. After a tight battle with Ricciardo, Vettel was able to muscle his way ahead of his younger teammate back into third position. Vettel would remain in third for the remainder of the race, powerless to challenge the superior Mercedes chassis, finishing behind Hamilton and Rosberg in the race.
Vettel suffered another disappointing qualifying in Bahrain, managing only a eleventh position. Teammate Ricciardo faired better to go third fastest, however due to a grid penalty, he dropped to thirteenth on the grid. At the start Vettel was able to make up places on the grid in the opening laps, however his charge was halted when he became stuck behind the Force India of Nico Hülkenberg in fourth position. This allowed teammate Ricciardo to close upon Vettel, the team then ordering Vettel to let Ricciardo through due his faster track times. Ricciardo then managed to dispose of Hülkenberg for fourth place. Vettel would finish the race in sixth place.
The Red Bull's proved to be much more competitive in China during the qualifying session, Vettel started the race from third on the grid, narrowly being beaten by Ricciardo who took second position. At the start, Vettel made a strong getaway climbing to second position behind the Mercedes of Lewis Hamilton. Despite strong initial pace, Vettel proved to be less competitive than the cars behind him, losing places to Nico Rosberg and Fernando Alonso. Vettel once again found himself in an intense duel with teammate Ricciardo. Despite being instructed for the second race in succession by Red Bull management to let Ricciardo through, Vettel responded over the team radio with "tough luck" and refused to make way for Ricciardo. On lap 25, Ricciardo proceeded to overtake Vettel anyway for fourth position. Vettel would finish the race directly behind Ricciardo in fifth.
Through out 2014 Vettel suffered two retirements in Monaco and Austria with more reliability issues and failing to achieve a podium finish since Canada up until his best result (a 2ND place) in Singapore and a 3RD place in Japan, he finishes the year in 5TH place ending his reign as champion. This was the first time since his debut that he failed to win a race.
[/qoute]
End of season
DR - 238
SV - 167
That's the closest I can find to a recent multiple WDC leaving a team one year before their contract ends
I could be wrong though. I couldn't care less though
Damp Logs said:
I very rarely comment on this thread as I am FAR from an expert, and I don’t want to get involved in arguments. (I’ve only watched F1 since early 70s)
Am I right in thinking Lewis tends to start the season slowly and improve after a few races??
Yes, this has tended to be a thing over his career. He is a relatively slow starter and usually is properly into his stride by the summer break. Am I right in thinking Lewis tends to start the season slowly and improve after a few races??
paulguitar said:
maz8062 said:
You know, I’m one of LH’s staunchest fans, have been since 2007, yet here I am being attacked by LH fans. I guess now I understand what it’s like to dare say a bad word about LH.
It’s been a lesson.
Isn’t it you that claims to be a fan of LH but all of your posts about him are really negative? It’s been a lesson.
If there is a lesson to learn, maybe it’s just to do posts that are a bit more sensible. What you’ve had to say over the last couple of days has been genuinely strange.
I'll just point out that it seems George hasn't had the success against Lewis at the start of the season that Nico did 8 years ago.
Hamilton has had many strong team mates. His first team mate in F1 was strong, his current team mate is, there have been a good few along the way. His team mates had 4x wdcs between them and hopefully George will increase that.
I find it interesting that Lewis is criticised for how he compares with team mates, but who else on the grid has had team mates anything like? Do we want to list Max's team mates, and the numbers of race wins between them (can't count wdcs, obviously).
Hamilton has had many strong team mates. His first team mate in F1 was strong, his current team mate is, there have been a good few along the way. His team mates had 4x wdcs between them and hopefully George will increase that.
I find it interesting that Lewis is criticised for how he compares with team mates, but who else on the grid has had team mates anything like? Do we want to list Max's team mates, and the numbers of race wins between them (can't count wdcs, obviously).
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