Honda to leave F1

[spunkytherabbit]

Fundoreen said:

People have this weird mixed up notion that F1 is just engines.
Its the racetracks and its the cars and its the drivers. You cant even see the engine anyway.
I did not watch even one of the FE end of season calender at the berlin track. Could not bear to inflict that boredom on myself.
Have gradually watched it less and less every year till zero for this last multi race end of season.
FE is only the future if you have a weak mind eager to please all the social media influencers they hire.
When they can run around an F1 track like spa at the same speed and as long as an F1 car I may take a look.

I largely agree with the general points. And as a 40+ year fan I know where you're coming from. I unfortunately see it as inevitable the path F1 is on and that the FIA will HAVE to do something to address the whole EV vs ICU situation. No the engines are not what is on show but they make the things go and only one group of companies now have the money to power F1 cars - manufacturers.

The every day world is a poorer place than 20 or so years ago and with marketability and marketing value now such an important factor in the decisions large companies make, it is inevitable an EV powered series will be more attractive to the companies that can afford to power a racing car. And if the FIA do not publish some sort of power train road map soon F1 could be left be left by the way side eventually.

I don't see how they can avoid the growing pressure from EV, Formula E or the wider public wanting day to day relevance. Regardless of the fact that as fans we can see the sport shouldn't HAVE to have this level of relevance to survive or be appreciated.

Edited by spunkytherabbit on Friday 2nd October 15:33

[WantSagaris]

F1 has to follow the money and the money is heading towards electric. Fuel cell is a nice idea but how many manufacturers right now are willing to pump money into it?

I wouldn't be surprised if in 2026 the switch is made to either EV, or very cost effective engines. In the shorter term F1 still has a spectacle problem. Come 2022, its looking like Mercedes will still be the team to beat having just won the last 16 available championships, and only if Ferrari get their act together could this change.

[Flooble]

Wammer said:

That will never happen but i can see F1 going Hydrogen powered from 2025 on wards. Hydrogen is the future and Formula One has always been the most technically advanced sport.

Not a chance. Hydrogen has always been ‘just around the corner’ - I remember James May doing a review of Honda’s hydrogen car that was going on sale ‘soon’ in 2008. Fuel cells don’t throttle well - they take forever to increase their power output which means a fuel cell car usually has a chunky battery as well to smooth out the power demands. In a race car the weight of the necessary components would lead to slug-like performance.

There was a hydrogen car at Le Mans, it did a couple of demonstration laps and hit about 200km/h if I recall correctly.

There’s more chance of them bringing back ‘refuelling’ and having battery swaps of pure electric cars. And I don’t see that happening either.

[bakerstreet]

Leithen said:

I suspect F1 and the FIA are scheduling Zoom calls with Forsythe and Kalkhoven as we speak. Or they have been ongoing for sometime.

This ought to be a wakeup call if it were at all needed about relying on multinational car manufacturers for engines.

That's because they are the only companies who can afford to develop the engines.

We all know Cosworth has their finger in many pies but we are well beyond the glory days of the Costworth V8 in F1 and I'm not sure that even Cosworth have the investment and inclination to build a competitive F1 engine

[Deesee]

The electrical talk seems unlikely to me these cars consume roughly 1200kw per hour in fuel flow.

The size and weight of the battery that would power the car would outweigh any performance, and they would resemble a truck.

Fully synthetic fuels with traditional v10 (with Mgu k), would be my immediate solution although that would almost certainly bring back refuelling... unless they Spec the Mgu H and make it affordable..

[spunkytherabbit]

Flooble said:

Wammer said:

That will never happen but i can see F1 going Hydrogen powered from 2025 on wards. Hydrogen is the future and Formula One has always been the most technically advanced sport.

Not a chance. Hydrogen has always been ‘just around the corner’ - I remember James May doing a review of Honda’s hydrogen car that was going on sale ‘soon’ in 2008. Fuel cells don’t throttle well - they take forever to increase their power output which means a fuel cell car usually has a chunky battery as well to smooth out the power demands. In a race car the weight of the necessary components would lead to slug-like performance.

There was a hydrogen car at Le Mans, it did a couple of demonstration laps and hit about 200km/h if I recall correctly.

There’s more chance of them bringing back ‘refuelling’ and having battery swaps of pure electric cars. And I don’t see that happening either.

And that is the unenviable situation the FIA have to deal with. If they don't publish a powertrain road map soon, then F1 loses ground, relevance and manufacturers to other EV series (FE especially). But how can you publish a road map that creates an attractive proposition for power train manufacturers when current EV or fuel cell technology is years away from the speed and race distance performance fitting of the F1 class?

What if the performance leaps in alternative power train technology don't happen? Come your published regulation date you either have F1 not able to make the switch and dying on it's feet, or cars that are no more spectacular than a lower formula. Then dying on it's feet!

It's almost a zero sum game. Right now anyway.

[HustleRussell]

bakerstreet said:

We all know Cosworth has their finger in many pies but we are well beyond the glory days of the Costworth V8 in F1 and I'm not sure that even Cosworth have the investment and inclination to build a competitive F1 engine

I don’t think they’re interested in doing an MGU-H.

[usn90]

AJB88 said:

Deesee said:

He’s re followed now, this was taken earlier

Haha guess his agent/RBR have smacked his wrists.

Probaly explains this lol

[Durzel]

LP670 said:

you are probably quite correct regarding the ICE and manual boxes, but there is already FE if one is looking at a sport in order to embrace the future, so where does F1 position itself?

On the scrapheap, alongside most ICE cars.

[TheDeuce]

spunkytherabbit said:

TheDeuce said:

No grovelling required. Renault are required to supply them with engines by default. It's up to RB & AT to seek alternative supply if they wish to. If they don't/can't then Renault have to supply them.

Of course... It might help the end result if they take some steps to improve their relationship ahead of relying on Renault

That's the stupid thing though isn't it. RBR/Horner/Marco won't approach it delicately. Their attitude will be 'well Renault are obliged to supply us, so give us the fkin engine. It'll be st mind, but you gotta give it me, so give it'. Rather than recognising neither of them want to be in a situation of working together but trying to put the best foot forward for a few years.

It'll be even stter than that I think. Renault will gladly supply them with engines as they're required to do. Renault could use the cash quite frankly, they must lose money hand over fist without any PU customers!

The st bit is that the broken relationship means they're not going to give a flying fk about working with RB in terms of ensuring efficient packaging and cooling of the PU to fit the RB. The Honda unit was the only good choice for RB as it's the only one that could be developed seamlessly along with the car. RB plus honda was a two way partnership. RB plus Renault is literally just a one way supply deal. Renault design their PU for their car - RB have to deal with it. No collaboration, no desire to really help RB, probably some desire to update their PU design in whatever way they think will force RB to sacrifice their ideal car design...

This is catastrophic for RB. Their only hope is to somehow entice a new partner PU supplier to F1. At best that is unlikely right now...

[CoolHands]

How do we know RBR won’t pull out (or be sold)? They threatened to before.

[Bradgate]

From the perspective of global car manufacturers planning for a zero-emission world, F1 currently represents the technology of the past, and FE represents the technology of the future.

F1, therefore, has a problem. It needs to ask itself what ‘the pinnacle of motorsport’ will mean in the 2030s and beyond. If that means working with manufacturers, the future can only be electric. If that means F1 without manufacturers, how will it develop its own power trains?

The obvious solution is that FE is used as a development series for electric racing, and that when the technology is ready to take over from fossil, FE & F1 merge into one series, with manufacturer support.

[TheDeuce]

Bradgate said:

From the perspective of global car manufacturers planning for a zero-emission world, F1 currently represents the technology of the past, and FE represents the technology of the future.

F1, therefore, has a problem. It needs to ask itself what ‘the pinnacle of motorsport’ will mean in the 2030s and beyond. If that means working with manufacturers, the future can only be electric. If that means F1 without manufacturers, how will it develop its own power trains?

The obvious solution is that FE is used as a development series for electric racing, and that when the technology is ready to take over from fossil, FE & F1 merge into one series, with manufacturer support.

Electric is the future, and the only future for F1. The problem is that presently the cell technology is nowhere near suitable for F1 and almost certainly won't be for at least 5 years. Worse still it won't be road car affordable for more like ten years, so won't be very relevant until that point.

Hybrid + biofuel is about as far as F1 can go until technology catches up with ideology.

[vaud]

TheDeuce said:

Electric is the future, and the only future for F1. The problem is that presently the cell technology is nowhere near suitable for F1 and almost certainly won't be for at least 5 years. Worse still it won't be road car affordable for more like ten years, so won't be very relevant until that point.

Hybrid + biofuel is about as far as F1 can go until technology catches up with ideology.

I guess the other question is - can it catch up - some basic physics at play for energy to get a vehicle to 200mph / 70 laps / etc. Over what time period can energy density of storage and recovery efficiency match the current (or even current -20%, you can always neuter F2/F3)

[Boom78]

I’m a massive F1 fan but the writing has been on the wall for years; F1 as we know it is sadly on borrowed time.

Manufacturers are only interested in an electric future. I will get slated for this but formula e will be the new F1 and in time be renamed as such. We may not like it but it’s the future

[Petrus1983]

In many ways Red Bulls ‘use’ of F1 is done - they exploited it brilliantly, but surely discussions will be being held regarding the logic of carrying it further forwards now.

[ArnageWRC]

It's not just F1, most of the major series are going to have to bite the bullet and move to what the manufacturers want. And it's not ICE....

[Muzzer79]

CoolHands said:

How do we know RBR won’t pull out (or be sold)? They threatened to before.

Around a month ago, they committed to the sport contractually for the next 5 years.

They can only get out of that by paying some hefty $$$$$

[Muzzer79]

Petrus1983 said:

In many ways Red Bulls ‘use’ of F1 is done - they exploited it brilliantly, but surely discussions will be being held regarding the logic of carrying it further forwards now.

I still maintain that they'd have known this was coming some time ago and if they were thinking of pulling out, they would not have signed up to the new 'Concorde agreement'

You would not sign up to a 5 year agreement for anything without having concrete back up plans in case something in your chain pulls out.

They have a plan B, whatever it is, which they think they can make work.

Edited by Muzzer79 on Friday 2nd October 17:20

[vaud]

Petrus1983 said:

In many ways Red Bulls ‘use’ of F1 is done - they exploited it brilliantly, but surely discussions will be being held regarding the logic of carrying it further forwards now.

So why did they sign the new agreement?