Honda to leave F1

[Petrus1983]

vaud said:

Petrus1983 said:

In many ways Red Bulls ‘use’ of F1 is done - they exploited it brilliantly, but surely discussions will be being held regarding the logic of carrying it further forwards now.

So why did they sign the new agreement?

Whilst I agree with you and Muzzer to a degree - it still wouldn’t surprise me if they’ve been blindsided by this - corporate Japan isn’t always known for their understanding nature of a sport largely based on the other side of the world. I’d also have expected more of a joint statement - this is very much a Honda statement.

[steedy27]

Not read this whole thread but couldn't Red Bull buy Honda's F1 operation and run it under a OEM's name for sponsorship?

[TheDeuce]

vaud said:

TheDeuce said:

Electric is the future, and the only future for F1. The problem is that presently the cell technology is nowhere near suitable for F1 and almost certainly won't be for at least 5 years. Worse still it won't be road car affordable for more like ten years, so won't be very relevant until that point.

Hybrid + biofuel is about as far as F1 can go until technology catches up with ideology.

I guess the other question is - can it catch up - some basic physics at play for energy to get a vehicle to 200mph / 70 laps / etc. Over what time period can energy density of storage and recovery efficiency match the current (or even current -20%, you can always neuter F2/F3)

Current EV cell density needs to increase 3 fold. In 5 years semi affordable solid state cells should achieve 2x current density... And as all tech can be expected at some point to improve further to the point at which cells can match the energy density of fuel.

There remain some tricky hurdles and question marks over material supply however. Any current predictions of timescale for the tech should considered guesstimates.

The tech will get there and will change our world very rapidly. At some point.

[anonymous-user]

steedy27 said:

Not read this whole thread but couldn't Red Bull buy Honda's F1 operation and run it under a OEM's name for sponsorship?

Honda wont sell their engine tech, they were incredibly reluctant to bring in any outside help to the project and certainly wont let that tech they developed out into the market.

[steedy27]

jsf said:

Honda wont sell their engine tech, they were incredibly reluctant to bring in any outside help to the project and certainly wont let that tech they developed out into the market.

Hmm shame, it's not like they have a use for it now and the project must have some sort of value.

[thegreenhell]

vaud said:

Petrus1983 said:

In many ways Red Bulls ‘use’ of F1 is done - they exploited it brilliantly, but surely discussions will be being held regarding the logic of carrying it further forwards now.

So why did they sign the new agreement?

It's the difference between closing down two teams and laying off over a thousand people, with all the costs involved, or having two teams to sell, each worth over $200M under the new Concord Agreement. Not signing would have guaranteed the former outcome.

[TheDeuce]

steedy27 said:

Not read this whole thread but couldn't Red Bull buy Honda's F1 operation and run it under a OEM's name for sponsorship?

That's not really how Honda work.. if it's their tech it's Honda. Also I doubt RB could afford it, it's not just the F1 operation, there will be bleed through tech that relies upon Honda's general engine development. Can't really detach the F1 side entirely from the main company.

If RB want a new bespoke PU they will need to entice another supplier to F1.

[anonymous-user]

TheDeuce said:

The tech will get there and will change our world very rapidly. At some point.

It wont, not in my lifetime, the chemistry is too limiting. Unlike computing power increases, pure energy store performance is far more limited.

The future is Hydrogen powered, only last week the EU committed to massive investment in Hydrogen valleys to drive the development forward. Honda's own press release tells you they are going down the Hydrogen route.

This will play out first in the large vehicle products like trucks and trains, cars coming later, but pure EV is a dead end short term solution.

Getting back to F1 engines, if the rules are simplified, it's not that expensive to build an engine from scratch, it's all down to having rules that don't require absurd costs, as we have currently.

Red Bull will have Renault engines from 2022, they will dump the current engine regs in 2027 and go to a far more simple powertrain which enables sustainable costs without manufacturer input being required. It's most likely going to mean methanol/biofuel powered cars to keep some PC credibility, which means refuelling. You'll probably have a KERS type system, it will probably still be turbo V6 with a single FIA turbo spec and mandated lower compression ratio.

[Petrus1983]

thegreenhell said:

It's the difference between closing down two teams and laying off over a thousand people, with all the costs involved, or having two teams to sell, each worth over $200M under the new Concord Agreement. Not signing would have guaranteed the former outcome.

This is a good point. That aspect of the agreement had already stuck out as strange before - how do we not know that CH/RBR weren’t behind that clause knowing they were facing leaving?

[vaud]

jsf said:

It wont, not in my lifetime, the chemistry is too limiting. Unlike computing power increases, pure energy store performance is far more limited.

The future is Hydrogen powered, only last week the EU committed to massive investment in Hydrogen valleys to drive the development forward. Honda's own press release tells you they are going down the Hydrogen route.

The medium term is battery... see Total's investment in giga-factories.

[kambites]

I can't see Mercedes or Ferrari giving them engines so it looks like they'll have to crawl back to Renault. Which is quite amusing, to say the least.

[bolidemichael]

Concerning Cosworth, they just finished developing the lightest, most powerful and advanced V12 for Gordon Murray's T50; should synthetic fuels become a viable tech, then it is entirely feasible that we can enjoy the spectacle of ICE powered racing for a new generation.

[Flooble]

thegreenhell said:

vaud said:

Petrus1983 said:

In many ways Red Bulls ‘use’ of F1 is done - they exploited it brilliantly, but surely discussions will be being held regarding the logic of carrying it further forwards now.

So why did they sign the new agreement?

It's the difference between closing down two teams and laying off over a thousand people, with all the costs involved, or having two teams to sell, each worth over $200M under the new Concord Agreement. Not signing would have guaranteed the former outcome.

I think this nails it, although what is the resolution if they cannot find a buyer?

With respect to "clean" technology, I don't see how the energy density or performance can be achieved.

A Mirai Fuel Cell car tips the scales at 1850kg and uses 5kg of Hydrogen (in two tanks) to go about as far as a Tesla Model S tipping the scales at 2200kg using 540kg of battery. The Mirai runs out of steam at 111mph (if it ever gets there with a 10 second 0-60!). The Model S can get up to 200mph (apparently). At 100 mph you *might* get 150 miles out of a 100kWh Model S. Given the amount of radiators (i.e. drag) on a Mirai I am doubtful it would get much past 100 miles at the same sort of speed.

The prototype LMP3 Hydrogen car (http://greengt.com/en/tech-cat/the-lmph2g-the-first-hydrogen-racing-prototype/) had 150kWh (8.6kg) of Hydrogen onboard in 300kg of tanks (!) and as a result weighed 1420kg (normal LMP3 is sub 930 kg with a 22 gallon tank). It was able to produce ~330bhp compared with 420bhp in a normal LMP3.

The LMP3 Hydrogen car had 150kWh on board, compared with ~ 800 kWh in the normal cars. With F1 engines being 50% efficient that means 400kWh available to the ICE cars so over double (and more like triple when you consider there are still *some* losses in EV drivetrains).

So, less power, less range, lower speeds, more weight ...

I don't see technology making the sort of leap you would need to have 1000bhp, 700kg cars able to do 200 miles at race speed without refuelling.

[TheDeuce]

jsf said:

TheDeuce said:

The tech will get there and will change our world very rapidly. At some point.

It wont, not in my lifetime, the chemistry is too limiting. Unlike computing power increases, pure energy store performance is far more limited.

You and I have had this debate before... The thing about ET is that progress is next to impossible to gauge as it's always locked behind layers of secrecy. What little has been demonstrated shows that 2x current density is possible, if not generally affordable or scaleable. Beyond that, maybe you're right. I don't know, neither of us can know. The only people that 'may' have a more workable solution will ensure no one knows until it's more or less ready. If anything they'll only bang on about the complications until that point - even to their own people actually working on solving the problems. Very few people will have a global view of the overall progress.

We have to wait and see. What is known is that at least 100 billion is invested in the tech and the race is on to secure the patent that will change the way we store and deploy energy. That's a hell of a target and if it is possible, the the rewards for achieving it would be insane.

Back to reality, I seriously doubt anything useful in terms of solid state will exist in general life for at least ten years - and again, I will concede you 'may' be right that the path could result in a dead end problem.

[PD9]

Really surprised by this news and definitely a blow to the sport. Hondas revival through RBR and AT was very refreshing for the sport.

Obviously RB knew about this weeks ago. I wonder if there was any discussion of RB subsidising the Honda F1 operation before the formal announcement as a last gasp attempt at keeping the Honda PU and related support.

[amgmcqueen]

I'm not sure why any manufacturer would want to get involved with modern F1?

The costs are ruinous, coupled with every developed nation on Earth in a Covid related recession....depression even.

Manufacturers (including Honda) will soon be financially in deep, deep st. F1 is the last bottomless pit they will want to pour their money into.

[anonymous-user]

PD9 said:

Really surprised by this news and definitely a blow to the sport. Hondas revival through RBR and AT was very refreshing for the sport.

Obviously RB knew about this weeks ago. I wonder if there was any discussion of RB subsidising the Honda F1 operation before the formal announcement as a last gasp attempt at keeping the Honda PU and related support.

RB were told officially by Honda after they signed the new Concorde agreement.
There was always a risk of this because Honda had only committed to staying until the end of 2021 in the contract they signed with Red Bull.

[glazbagun]

If Merc leave to be an engine supplier they can be like Ford in the DFV era. Wouldn't do them any harm to have come, kicked ass, and left, bequeathing the championship-winning engine for the next twenty years. Give it to RB, McLaren, Aston and Brawn/Ineos/Whoever. Let Renault and Ferrari bring the masochism.

[Stan the Bat]

F1 needs to be FTA as well to get viewer numbers up.

[anonymous-user]

vaud said:

jsf said:

It wont, not in my lifetime, the chemistry is too limiting. Unlike computing power increases, pure energy store performance is far more limited.

The future is Hydrogen powered, only last week the EU committed to massive investment in Hydrogen valleys to drive the development forward. Honda's own press release tells you they are going down the Hydrogen route.

The medium term is battery... see Total's investment in giga-factories.

Having recently bought an EV, which does most of what we need in a car, I would say EVs are here for a long time for domestic use.

Hydrogen will be used for some purposes but I can’t see a single advantage it will have for private cars.