Saudi Arabia added to 2021 calender
Discussion
Sandpit Steve said:
TheDeuce said:
I spent a little time in Dubai a couple of years ago. I noticed at the Mall they had imported a Waitrose supermarket and it was proudly advertising the sale of pork products (along with a disclaimer to not enter if you don't agree with such produce). If that's not proof that importing western brands can shift levels of acceptance then... 
And in Jordan for another work trip years ago I was taught what a VPN did by a local lad that had taken to watching iPlayer He's probably not going to grow up too bothered about stoning anyone if he's in part grown up with the wisdom that is Eastenders and Masterchef 
He also had the shrewdness to politely ask me if I thought his knowledge was worth 5 JD. I paid.. He had no issue with capitalism then!
Ha yes, the “Pork Section” in Waitrose is one of those things you get used to. Yes, things are changing quite quickly in the region, driven by the younger generation of ‘locals’ being well educated, often abroad, well travelled and familiar with other cultures. And in Jordan for another work trip years ago I was taught what a VPN did by a local lad that had taken to watching iPlayer
He's probably not going to grow up too bothered about stoning anyone if he's in part grown up with the wisdom that is Eastenders and Masterchef He also had the shrewdness to politely ask me if I thought his knowledge was worth 5 JD. I paid.. He had no issue with capitalism then!In Dubai, one change that has happened due to the events of this year, is that the (state-run) alcohol shops have now started doing home deliveries! It’ll take some time before that happens in Saudi, but as yourself and others have said things there are changing quickly.
sparta6 said:
TheDeuce said:
I know. 8000 years, virtually no change. Last 100 years, all sorts of western shock and horror at how far the ME is from what we consider acceptable. In the last 20 years however, change is occuring as fast as possible without actually ripping apart established society. Each new generation demands and drives change one way or another. They can't be as demanding as the western twitter kids just yet granted, but they can be socially vocal and just like in the west, businesses in the east adapt to the messages they receive via social. Change is afoot. The acceptance of F1 in SA just proves that those now with influence are not as terrified of letting in western influence as their last generation predecessors were.
And why should other cultures accept that Western ways are better ?The US has an appalling record with circa 25% of the world's total prisoners.
Also among it's long running track record;
Record rates of drug addiction
Record rates of homelessness
Record rates of murder
Record rates of racial injustice
Record rates of poverty
Record rates of crime
Not exactly a shining beacon for adopting the Western format
It's about making one another cultures open so people on both sides can see how things can work differently and take from that what they will. That's those on this thread that look down on certain aspects of culture in the ME at present should think twice before saying F1 shouldn't go there. For several reasons, it should go there.
kevinon said:
Quite a balanced discussion, really !
On that note, I can see that the F1 circus visiting town can help a regime and its people see new stuff. The example of a woman working in the pit is a good one, which I hadn't thought of.
Against that, maybe F1 a minority sport with limited scope to change hearts and minds, compared to say football.
Off-topic, will the enlightened decision for Qatar to host the World Cup help change hearts and minds?
I don't, and I don't think anyone expects F1 to make any sort of measurable impact by itself - but the positive thing is that the region is importing stuff like F1 from the west, which obviously has been a concern in the past as the fear amongst leaders and elders is that the younger generations will see things that could undermine 'good behaviour'... Now however, things are relaxing a little - albeit for economic reasons perhaps, but the end result will be the same.On that note, I can see that the F1 circus visiting town can help a regime and its people see new stuff. The example of a woman working in the pit is a good one, which I hadn't thought of.
Against that, maybe F1 a minority sport with limited scope to change hearts and minds, compared to say football.
Off-topic, will the enlightened decision for Qatar to host the World Cup help change hearts and minds?
So it's not about proving there is an 'excuse' for F1 to take their money and go there - it's just a case of it being part of a general shift in attitude that should continue to do good, and it's also plain good business for both SA and F1.
FourWheelDrift said:
"Saudi women's rights activist Loujain al-Hathloul is sentenced to nearly six years in jail"
among the charges: calling for an end to male guardianship, applying for a UN job, attending digital privacy training, & communicating with international groups & media about women's rights.
https://www.france24.com/en/middle-east/20201228-s...
Still, they're paying for an F1 race ....
Well of course they are... The question is why. They need to look more to the west as the oil money starts to dry up. If we go over, in spite of all that we don't agree with, it's inevitable that they will take at least something of our culture at least. Not just from F1 but from every part of western culture they import.among the charges: calling for an end to male guardianship, applying for a UN job, attending digital privacy training, & communicating with international groups & media about women's rights.
https://www.france24.com/en/middle-east/20201228-s...
Still, they're paying for an F1 race ....
That's the way it's worked for countless thousands of years at least. That's why I'm not opposed to F1 going there - even though I freely admit that much of the recent history is hard to stomach.
The basic principle stands however. If you think your culture is kinder than another, the best way to help (from your perspective at least), is to welcome it being exported and shared.
768 said:
vaud said:
Serious question - where do we draw the moral line?
What, from our armchairs, should constitute a “red line” for F1?
Democracy?
The death penalty?
The placing on the corruption index?
A countries position on free press?
LGBT rights, etc?
Wherever it prevents F1 operating safely, perhaps.What, from our armchairs, should constitute a “red line” for F1?
Democracy?
The death penalty?
The placing on the corruption index?
A countries position on free press?
LGBT rights, etc?
Saudi wants the F1. None of those things I'd expect to impact upon the event and if it doesn't get the F1 it isn't going to become democratic or deliver a free press, etc.
FWIW Saudi's put some effort into anti-corruption amongst others and now ranks higher than some EU countries.
The Saudis will tune in and see and hear western drivers with western views looking like superstars and female mechanics at work.
All of that could well have no real effect - but it won't have a negative effect... They can take from it what they will. F1 can take their money by return. No part of that is wrong.
They're opening the doors to western culture. It would be rude and small minded to not step through. Its also worth bearing in mind how nervous the establishment must be about the need to let ever more western influence in - they must know it will cause the younger generations to question a few things and maybe push for change - yet they're doing it anyway.
Invite sent, F1 is going. I'll be happy to watch and hope it's a good venue. Tbh almost any totally new venue is good for the first season
Sandpit Steve said:
We know that the change can’t happen quickly enough for many Westen activists, but it is still happening there. They’ll get there in the end, as they need an economy not completely based on oil for the second half of this century.
Quite. It's not going to happen quickly - nor should it quite frankly, fundamental change is an upset in any society and takes a very long time.Sooner they're exposed to more western influence the better then. Delaying that influence out of 'protest' is just daft. Why protest something when you're invited to head to ground zero and can offer an influence where it can do the most good..??
For the sake of balance, there are plenty of things we could take from the eastern cultures too... And we increasingly do so. It's always best to mingle cultures in the end. Any right thinking F1 fan should love this deal for the health of the sport, and watch keenly to see the sport played out in a place that some viewers might find a little alien, but is nonetheless an interesting part of the world with a lot needed but also a lot to give.
SmoothCriminal said:
I can't believe that people are so deluded that they think a couple of days of F1 is going to change Saudi Arabia.
Deluded? You read through several well made points in this thread and missed them all?Literally no one has said that. It's about SA being open to western influence, not the tiny part that F1 may play.
In principle, it's correct F1 should go there imo. And it's also correct pizza hut. mcdonalds and KFC should go there. Along with Ferrari, Lamborghini and a thousand other western brands.
Not one of them will have a measurable effect on their own. The fact they CAN go there now does however suggest a change of thinking is afoot in the middle east. They want all the fancy western stuff and in doing so they will absorb parts of western culture. It's proven throughout history, that's just what happens.
Eric Mc said:
I'll forgive the F1 circus if the drivers are willing to "Take the Knee" in support of women's rights just before the race.
Forgive the F1 circus for what exactly? Endless despicable things happen in London most weeks - I work there occasionally, do I need your forgiveness too..?F1 is a business Eric. They go to where the customer waves the bank notes, as does every business. F1 doesn't need forgiving because of whatever else Saudi Arabia gets up to outside of F1. That is SA's problem and responsibility.
F1 would only need forgiveness for going to SA if doing so would somehow worsen the situation over there, which it just won't. There is however a slim chance that it could be be a small part of a greater awaking amongst the middle east in terms of human rights.
Eric Mc said:
You seem to assume that because we aren't perfect in the UK, British citizens have no right to point out the imperfectness of others.
If that really is the case, then we are doomed.
There are different levels of imperfectness. Of course we have our faults - but that does not remove the right for us to criticise or point out worse faults elsewhere - especially when those faults are clear and obvious government policy.
And to justify immoral and despicable behaviour on the grounds that it is "business" is frankly shocking to me.
This year in particular, the F1 tribe has chosen to make a point about taking a stand on the abuse of human rights regarding black lives. I have no problem with that. But why can't they take a similar strand on women's rights?
Or do moral stands vary depending on the "business equation"?
I didn't say we shouldn't point out what is wrong elsewhere, we should.If that really is the case, then we are doomed.
There are different levels of imperfectness. Of course we have our faults - but that does not remove the right for us to criticise or point out worse faults elsewhere - especially when those faults are clear and obvious government policy.
And to justify immoral and despicable behaviour on the grounds that it is "business" is frankly shocking to me.
This year in particular, the F1 tribe has chosen to make a point about taking a stand on the abuse of human rights regarding black lives. I have no problem with that. But why can't they take a similar strand on women's rights?
Or do moral stands vary depending on the "business equation"?
I didn't justify despicable behavioy as 'business'. I justified normal business behaviour as business.
You're basically saying that F1 shouldn't go anywhere unless it takes a stand against all issues when it gets there - which means it can't really go anywhere. And by the same logic I assume you think that a bloke that works for one charity is an absolute a
hole due to not working for every other charity? F1 is in the business of travelling the globe and running races. It goes wherever makes financial sense. The behaviour of others in certain places has sod all to do with F1 and all F1 is there to endorse is racing and the business of motorsport.
You've also massively missed the sensible points made throughout this thread. It's not about identifying and acknowledging what we already know to be problems in SA, it's about whether or not F1 does any harm by going, or even if it could do some good.
I think a generation of SA students watching female garage crew at work on their home soil might somewhat influence their stance on a few things in a decade or so's time when some of those generation have to become influential and law makers...
Your view seems to be that it's wrong to do anything about problems until the problems are solved
NDA said:
Eric Mc said:
Y
This year in particular, the F1 tribe has chosen to make a point about taking a stand on the abuse of human rights regarding black lives. I have no problem with that. But why can't they take a similar strand on women's rights?
Or do moral stands vary depending on the "business equation"?
Ha!This year in particular, the F1 tribe has chosen to make a point about taking a stand on the abuse of human rights regarding black lives. I have no problem with that. But why can't they take a similar strand on women's rights?
Or do moral stands vary depending on the "business equation"?
100% right..... totally agree.
No one should criticise that unless they're personally willing to give up their working life in order to permanently campaign for every single cause they can think of or is presented to them.
anonymous said:
[redacted]
Even before the modern 'democratic' invasions to bring 'peace' (!?!?), Britain was for centuries one of the nastiest and most aggressive countries on the planet. Everything was about securing wealth by dumbing down other nations aspirations and taking ownership of them. Which you know what, I completely understand and forgive - because at the time the race was on to build the ultimate empire and that's just how people viewed life. Those who conquered had to be right, otherwise they wouldn't be successful in conquering... At the time, it all felt necessary and justified 'for Britain'.A couple of hundred years has changed views in Britain beyond belief quite frankly. Which is why my shoulders sag when people on here say that the middle east should be avoided because their views are not particularly modern... I mean, c'mon, if you really believe that then obviously get behind sending a massive dollop of western culture over there in the form of F1!! Scorning their ways from a distance and then boycotting them is basically just watching a mess play out and not caring to get involved in helping the situation improve.
anonymous said:
[redacted]
Of course they do. And trust me, after having worked the majority of my life jetting around the place I have no particular love of 'being British' with the stty weather and national trait or jealousy and oneupmanship that I honestly haven't experienced anywhere else around the world other than some parts of America.I loved my time in Jordan. There is so much positive about the middle Eastern cultures that isn't dramatic enough to upset the old farts on here that trundle to Waitrose one a week to buy a copy of the daily mail....
Personally I plan to do another ten years in the film industry, sell off some property and probably self build in Greece. Pretty much anywhere other than this turd hole will do. The more I've travelled, the more stupid I've felt returning home each time.
Deesee said:
TheDeuce said:
Pretty much anywhere other than this turd hole will do.
Where in gods name do you live, you should probably think of relocating, there are some fantastic spots in the UK...It's not the scenery or amenities that depress me. I was perhaps a bit strong to call the country a turd hole... Don't want to offend anyone. I've just never felt a loyalty to a place simply because I happen to have been born there, and having travelled so much, there are other places I feel more comfortable with and happier in than modern Britain.
https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/article.first-l...
Quote interesting stats... Apparently an average speed that could rival Monza but around a circuit with 27 turns. That makes it a fairly unique and potentially quite interesting circuit. More than just another Tilke effort perhaps..?
Quote interesting stats... Apparently an average speed that could rival Monza but around a circuit with 27 turns. That makes it a fairly unique and potentially quite interesting circuit. More than just another Tilke effort perhaps..?
thegreenhell said:
Is this instead of the original one they planned that went around the scrap yard and the sewage works? It looks just like every other boring street circuit, and it could be anywhere in the world under floodlights.
Seems to be a new design, again... And an improvement over the last one! Yea other than the supposed high average speed there's nothing particularly interesting I agree.Apparently this street circuit is just temporary pending a full and permanent circuit in Qiddiya.
I'm conflicted - I love the quality of satirical humour that these middle east races generate and I support much of the outrage..
But at heart I think F1 is a business and should take the money wherever it comes from so long as it's not illegal or immoral. It's certainly legal.. is it moral? Imo yes, on the basis that F1 isn't actively supporting the local practices by going there, if anything the presence of F1 is more likely to promote further adoption of western ways in the ME and in doing so help the push for change.
I can't criticise F1 for going to places that don't align to its public values. I would argue such places are in fact the most useful places to send a full fat delivery of western-ism.
But at heart I think F1 is a business and should take the money wherever it comes from so long as it's not illegal or immoral. It's certainly legal.. is it moral? Imo yes, on the basis that F1 isn't actively supporting the local practices by going there, if anything the presence of F1 is more likely to promote further adoption of western ways in the ME and in doing so help the push for change.
I can't criticise F1 for going to places that don't align to its public values. I would argue such places are in fact the most useful places to send a full fat delivery of western-ism.
thegreenhell said:
In fairness that pit building looks like it's just about to be clad and then it'll appear far more 'done', and the groundworks around the circuit look very advanced too. That said, a month really isn't very long even for a site that probably looks far less finished than it actually is.I recall the circuit in India was reportedly still something of a building site for the maiden GP! Mostly hidden behind banners and screens of course. That and the fact half the facilities were missing, inoperable or just plain dangerous. And power cuts on top of all that too!
DrDeAtH said:
I suspect, if they get the track finished in time, it will be a very slippy track for this race.
Tracks done by all accounts, good to go. And I expect you're right, it will be slippery - unless they have gone the other route and negated the problems with fresh tarmac by selecting a particularly abrasive mix for the surface, although that could easily bring it's own problems too.Any new circuit combined with brand new tarmac is going to spin the heads of Pirelli and the teams engineers and strategists.
Good for us viewers though...
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