Does Mercedes need Lewis now ?

[ch37]

TheDeuce said:

It would help if a few more members actually bothered to watch F2! Which this year has been brilliant imo.

Especially as, almost by definition, everyone moaning about it 'just being the car' with regard to Hamilton's record, would presumably prefer to watch a spec series?

Although newsflash, even a spec series has stronger, better funded teams (and therefore better car set up etc).

[TheDeuce]

ch37 said:

TheDeuce said:

It would help if a few more members actually bothered to watch F2! Which this year has been brilliant imo.

Especially as, almost by definition, everyone moaning about it 'just being the car' with regard to Hamilton's record, would presumably prefer to watch a spec series?

Although newsflash, even a spec series has stronger, better funded teams (and therefore better car set up etc).

That's the thing.... Most of what certain people claim would 'fix' or improve F1 already exists in F2! Watch both series and all bases are covered - they might even see that there are reasons the best drivers tend to end up in the best cars when they do transition to F1...

[TheDeuce]

kiseca said:

I'll admit I've never actually never tried. I've never seen it on Channel 4. Is it possible to see F2 without Sky?

Only on Sky in the UK... Although I think a couple of weekends were put on youtube this season. I will admit that the very steep Sky paywall is a valid problem for people that otherwise might well be inclined to watch.

The other way of looking at that problem is that F2 adds a lot of value if you can afford Sky and as such justifies some of the cost, in addition to F1 of course. Looking out for deals on NowTV sports passes is probably the most affordable way to watch all the F1 + support series races with minimal hassle, and you don't need a Sky subscription in the first place.

It's weird that Sky don't let C4 broadcast the F2 races - I would have thought that letting people watch the support races for free would be a very good way of inclining more people to pay for the Sky coverage of F1 - anyone watching drivers excel and then be promoted out of F2 would surely be inclined to see how they get on in F1. Tbh I've thought that since Sky got the current rights deal they haven't done half as much as they could to attract new UK viewers - they need to open up more content for free in order to incentivise more people to pay for the full experience.

Bit of a rant, sorry

[Nampahc Niloc]

I tried watching the F2 highlights on the official F1 YouTube channel, but they were far to short to get any feel for the race.
Watching the race live for the first time last weekend was really good and made my Now TV pass more worthwhile, but not sure it will convince to pay for the entire season.

I quite like watching the full British F3 and British F4 races on YouTube, though unfortunately they don’t seem to show every race of the weekend.

Edit: Typo. They really should make the edit/report buttons bigger on a phone screen. The amount of times I have almost reported my own post because of my fat thumbs.

[Durzel]

HustleRussell said:

Durzel said:

I love how in other threads people are suddenly talking Russell up as if he’s the new Messiah, and how he’s always been one to watch, etc. Before this all happened these same people weren’t talking about Russell at all in any meaningful way. He was just off their radar completely. It’s laughable, it’s like they have to convince themselves that this godlike driver has been hiding in plain sight all this time, because to accept anything less would mean having to question Hamilton’s contribution.

I prefer to accept reality, that Russell is a good driver, like almost all of the field, who - as Verstappen pointed out - if they had the same opportunity they’d have similar results.

Yes, how could anybody have possibly known that George was an exceptional driver before he reached F1 without you knowing?

Everybody accepts the reality- that F1 drivers hatch from an egg two lunar cycles before pre-season testing begins and nobody knows how good they are until they get in an F1 car. It's not as if they have, for example, been racing continuously since they were infants, or dominated the strongest F2 grid for some years at their first attempt the previous year.

Somewhere between your pontificating I think you forgot to make a clear point.

I never said Russell wasn't a good or even great driver. I said that people suddenly started talking about him in more hyperbolic terms after his performances in the car, because to suggest that he is "merely" a great driver, as he was described prior to all of this happening, betrays the logic that the car must therefore have made a significant difference, and that therefore Hamilton is somewhat flattered by it.

Verstappen said that "90% of the field would win in that car", which is patently evident by the fact that Russell got in it, didn't fit it properly, had barely any track time with it, and would've won the race were it not for Mercedes's calamitousness. Were people previously talking about Russell being a viable Hamiltion replacement, or even a Bottas replacement prior to all of this happening?

Either Russell has to be considered to be in the same league as Hamilton, or the car flatters both of them, as it would almost anyone else on the grid who drove it.

[Leftfootwonder]

I think I must be the only Brit who has not warmed to Russell. He lost me when he started whinging earlier in the season about how he used to win against Albon and Norris but they're in better cars etc. Almost like he needed to prove he is still relevant, as if securing an F1 seat alone is not good enough and on the Merc program to boot! He's been far from perfect as a back marker, the kid can't even warm his tyres without pranging the barrier for goodness sake. If this was any other young driver, like Albon, they'd be scrutinising and piling on the pressure. With GR it's just "poor old George". I am not denying he drove a great grandprix on Sunday but I think we can all agree that even Latifi could probably steer that Merc to a podium.

And yes, he does look like a fruity Thunderbird.

[TwentyFive]

Durzel said:

Either Russell has to be considered to be in the same league as Hamilton, or the car flatters both of them, as it would almost anyone else on the grid who drove it.

I don't see how you can draw that conclusion when Russell didn't race against Hamilton? Can we now reasonably suggest he is ahead of Bottas on ability? Yes, possibly and he will only improve too but I am also aware that one swallow doesn't make a summer. I think George is right up there with Leclerc and Max as the next generation but there is yet to be any valid comparison to Lewis though. How can we not be sure Lewis wouldn't have been 20 seconds further down the road had he been in the car? We can't be.

I agree that the car flatters whoever drives it due to its absolute pace, but flattering a driver is wholly different to it being entirely responsible for their performance. Lewis entire racing career prior to joining Mercedes proves that his results are based on ability, not just the car. Russell can make a similar claim based on his career to date.

They are both incredibly talented, but they can only be compared when in the same car on the same day.

[Durzel]

TwentyFive said:

I don't see how you can draw that conclusion when Russell didn't race against Hamilton? Can we now reasonably suggest he is ahead of Bottas on ability? Yes, possibly and he will only improve too but I am also aware that one swallow doesn't make a summer. I think George is right up there with Leclerc and Max as the next generation but there is yet to be any valid comparison to Lewis though. How can we not be sure Lewis wouldn't have been 20 seconds further down the road had he been in the car? We can't be.

I agree that the car flatters whoever drives it due to its absolute pace, but flattering a driver is wholly different to it being entirely responsible for their performance. Lewis entire racing career prior to joining Mercedes proves that his results are based on ability, not just the car. Russell can make a similar claim based on his career to date.

They are both incredibly talented, but they can only be compared when in the same car on the same day.

Russell did also beat everyone else on the track, which Hamilton does on a weekly basis too. Would Russell ordinarily be considered as faster/better than Verstappen or Riccairdo?

I would agree though that you can't read too much into what happened, in terms of comparisons to Lewis. Lewis has ground out wins he had no rights to win, and has a lot of experience under pressure, and that has a value to it. I do think it is significant though how well he did, given the limited time in the car and the fact it wasn't designed for him, etc.

I actually think to some extent how this all played out was as much down to Mercedes demonstrating leverage in the contract negotiations with Hamilton, as anything else. Under normal circumstances they wouldn't have the opportunity to stick someone else in the seat, so they would be taking a gamble if they didn't bend to Hamilton's demands. By sticking Russell in the car, and him doing as well as he did, they can go back to the negotiating table with a bit more clout. That's how I see it anyway.

I think on balance you're probably on the money in everything you've said there.

Edited by Durzel on Thursday 10th December 12:16

[HustleRussell]

Durzel said:

HustleRussell said:

Durzel said:

I love how in other threads people are suddenly talking Russell up as if he’s the new Messiah, and how he’s always been one to watch, etc. Before this all happened these same people weren’t talking about Russell at all in any meaningful way. He was just off their radar completely. It’s laughable, it’s like they have to convince themselves that this godlike driver has been hiding in plain sight all this time, because to accept anything less would mean having to question Hamilton’s contribution.

I prefer to accept reality, that Russell is a good driver, like almost all of the field, who - as Verstappen pointed out - if they had the same opportunity they’d have similar results.

Yes, how could anybody have possibly known that George was an exceptional driver before he reached F1 without you knowing?

Everybody accepts the reality- that F1 drivers hatch from an egg two lunar cycles before pre-season testing begins and nobody knows how good they are until they get in an F1 car. It's not as if they have, for example, been racing continuously since they were infants, or dominated the strongest F2 grid for some years at their first attempt the previous year.

Somewhere between your pontificating I think you forgot to make a clear point.

I never said Russell wasn't a good or even great driver. I said that people suddenly started talking about him in more hyperbolic terms after his performances in the car, because to suggest that he is "merely" a great driver, as he was described prior to all of this happening, betrays the logic that the car must therefore have made a significant difference, and that therefore Hamilton is somewhat flattered by it.

Verstappen said that "90% of the field would win in that car", which is patently evident by the fact that Russell got in it, didn't fit it properly, had barely any track time with it, and would've won the race were it not for Mercedes's calamitousness. Were people previously talking about Russell being a viable Hamiltion replacement, or even a Bottas replacement prior to all of this happening?

Either Russell has to be considered to be in the same league as Hamilton, or the car flatters both of them, as it would almost anyone else on the grid who drove it.

My point was buried within layers of irony. Drivers don't actually hatch out of eggs two lunar cycles before pre-season testing begins. George has had an exceptional career up to F1 and has shown well at Williams as well considering.

People seem very busy trying to decide whether it's the car or the driver when it is patently obvious that it can be two things, and what is to be debated is in what proportion those two factors contribute- and that's if we're only talking about race weekend performance at the track, which is only a part of the drivers overall contribution to 'the team' as a marketing tool.

[Durzel]

Good points well made

[Exige77]

George has shown us he’s fast and safe but the true test is when you’re fighting for a championship week in week out.

We know Lewis is fast but his real strength is he can do all the other necessary things like tyre preservation, fuel saving, over taking, staying out of trouble, strategy et all while under pressure to win the championship.

Max and Charles can both be fast but they keep making mistakes over a season. Sometimes when not even under pressure.

I expect George to get better and better just as Hamilton is peaking. We might get a season of the two of them going at hammer and tongs just before Lewis retires.

Now that’s something I’d like to see !!

[HustleRussell]

Also I believe that Bottas is no slouch and, like many others, was expecting him to capitalise on his experience in the team to put some perspective on the amount of work Russell still has to do to fully exploit the potential of the best team and the best car.

Instead he just got in and did it.

I hope that in time we will get a better measure of Bottas and I believe that he could be shown to be at least in the top half of current F1 drivers.

For the record I think that any driver on the 2020 grid would win one or more races in the Mercedes if they were in it for a season. Even a Latifi would be quick enough to take a win if his Mercedes team mate and Verstappen had problems. The performance of the car in 2020 and of Alex Albon in the second Red Bull is such that the other 17 cars on the grid aren't a factor.

ETA: And the above says more about my opinion on the strength of the 2020 grid as much as anything.

[angrymoby]

Kraken said:

Besides it's irrelevant whether he developed the car or not. The average dry quali time difference between Bottas and Hamilton is 0.08 and Russell is 0.02 behind Bottas in a car that doesn't fit him, he doesn't fully understand and is still pressing the wrong buttons on.

where are you getting 0.08s from? ...i make it double that if you exclude the wet Quali in Styrian & Turkey GP's

0.19s difference overall

0.56s difference in wet

[Exige77]

angrymoby said:

Kraken said:

Besides it's irrelevant whether he developed the car or not. The average dry quali time difference between Bottas and Hamilton is 0.08 and Russell is 0.02 behind Bottas in a car that doesn't fit him, he doesn't fully understand and is still pressing the wrong buttons on.

where are you getting 0.08s from? ...i make it double that if you exclude the wet Quali in Styrian & Turkey GP's

0.19s difference overall

0.56s difference in wet

Just checking how many times George was 0.02 secs behind Valtteri in qualifying ?

Is it the average gap over the whole season ?

Oh, just the once then. Not really representative then and certainly not s scientific precise comparison between the two.

George did a great job, certainly enough to proceed to the next step but not enough to right off Valtteri I don’t think.

Edited by Exige77 on Thursday 10th December 13:06

[DaveE87]

Verstappen said that 90% would win in a Mercedes. However, Sainz summed it up well by saying that 90% wouldn't beat Hamilton in the same car. As I think I said earlier in this thread Merc wanted Russell for this year but Williams prevented it. If Russell isn't alongside Hamilton next year it has to happen in 2022.

[mattikake]

TheDeuce said:

kiseca said:

I'll admit I've never actually never tried. I've never seen it on Channel 4. Is it possible to see F2 without Sky?

Only on Sky in the UK... Although I think a couple of weekends were put on youtube this season. I will admit that the very steep Sky paywall is a valid problem for people that otherwise might well be inclined to watch.

The other way of looking at that problem is that F2 adds a lot of value if you can afford Sky and as such justifies some of the cost, in addition to F1 of course. Looking out for deals on NowTV sports passes is probably the most affordable way to watch all the F1 + support series races with minimal hassle, and you don't need a Sky subscription in the first place.

It's weird that Sky don't let C4 broadcast the F2 races - I would have thought that letting people watch the support races for free would be a very good way of inclining more people to pay for the Sky coverage of F1 - anyone watching drivers excel and then be promoted out of F2 would surely be inclined to see how they get on in F1. Tbh I've thought that since Sky got the current rights deal they haven't done half as much as they could to attract new UK viewers - they need to open up more content for free in order to incentivise more people to pay for the full experience.

Bit of a rant, sorry

Sky F1 is really worth the subscription. Don't forget you get F3 and no doubt WS next year. You get all practice and quali sessions, even some Porsche supercup and Ferrari world challenge, though not live. Loads of features, documentaries and historic race replays. And you can record them all for a later date although with the continual reruns you don't really need to.

Imo it's the best value channel on Sky and actually is the only thing i have sky for. And no for those who hate Croft, he only does the F1.

Ok so it costs a decent grandstand ticket but a true fan happily pays for both anyway.

Edited by mattikake on Thursday 10th December 14:01

[Chrisgr31]

mattikake said:

Sky F1 is really worth the subscription. Don't forget you get F3 and no doubt WS next year. You get all practice and quali sessions, even some Porsche supercup and Ferrari world challenge, though not live. Loads of features, documentaries and historic race replays. And you can record them all for a later date although with the continual reruns you don't really need to.

Imo it's the best value channel on Sky and actually is the only thing i have sky for. And no for those who hate Croft, he only does the F1.

Ok so it costs a decent grandstand ticket but a true fan happily pays for both anyway.

Edited by mattikake on Thursday 10th December 14:01

It’s not just the issue of cost there is time to be taken in to account as well.

Before marriage and daughter I used to go to at least 1 Grand Prix a years, lots of BTCC, and Le Mans. Since marriage and daughter I have other things to do at weekends especially as my wife works many of them. The result being I struggle to watch motorsport on TV, so whilst watching F2 might add value to the Sky subscription it’s off no use to those that don’t have time to watch!

[kiseca]

Durzel said:

Verstappen said that "90% of the field would win in that car", which is patently evident by the fact that Russell got in it, didn't fit it properly, had barely any track time with it, and would've won the race were it not for Mercedes's calamitousness.

There are 20 drivers on the grid. Bottas is struggling to beat Verstappen and may well lose to him again this year. If Verstappen was right that would mean Bottas is one of the two worst drivers on the grid.

Personally I wouldn't rate Bottas below Grosjean, Magnussen, Latifi, Stroll, Albon or even Seb this year. But he'd have to be worse than five out of those six for Verstappen to be accurate.

Durzel said:

Were people previously talking about Russell being a viable Hamiltion replacement, or even a Bottas replacement prior to all of this happening?

Yes, regularly. The only thing that has changed now is the number of people questioning that view.

[ch37]

Those arguing this seem to forget that a big part of the reason Hamilton is managing to do what he does is consistency. Russell had a cracking race and is for sure a star of the future in F1, but Hamilton basically does that pretty much every weekend and has done so for several years now.

Look at Bottas' last three finishes, that just doesn't happen to Hamilton. You could point to the circumstances around him finishing well outside the top 5 three times in a row, but equally why don't those circumstances happen to Hamilton so frequently? Whether it's because he elevates/motivates those around him I don't know, but there is certainly something to it.

I don't think anyone could suggest with a straight face that Verstappen would have the points haul Lewis has over the past few years, he's nowhere near mature enough in terms of racecraft, tyre management, team management etc.

[antspants]

Durzel said:

I actually think to some extent how this all played out was as much down to Mercedes demonstrating leverage in the contract negotiations with Hamilton, as anything else. Under normal circumstances they wouldn't have the opportunity to stick someone else in the seat, so they would be taking a gamble if they didn't bend to Hamilton's demands. By sticking Russell in the car, and him doing as well as he did, they can go back to the negotiating table with a bit more clout. That's how I see it anyway.

I think Mercedes and Lewis are both well aware of the value having the potentially record breaking 8x WDC driving a Mercedes whilst doing it is to the company. I doubt one race by a driver already widely touted to be taking one of the seats in 2022 will have any impact on Lewis's contract negotiations.