Ask an F1 Engineer anything

[Benrad]

VladD said:

Hi.

Martin Brundle occasionally talks about how much force it takes to push the brake pedal in a F1 car. However, I thought all F1 car use brake by wire these days, so if the driver isn't actually having to force hydraulic fluid through pipes, why is the big force needed?

I'm guessing I'm missing something obvious, so apologies in advance for any required face palm.

Cheers.

Not the OP but I think that's down to muscle memory, much easier to produce a consistent response with a reasonable amount of pressure. In every other formula they were used to big pressure so reducing it might actually make consistent braking more difficult.

Turning a race car on the limit is as much about how you apply and release brakes as it is what you do with the steering wheel

Sim racers use load cell or even hydraulic brake pedals to allow for consistency (rather than the cheap potentiometer pedals plebs like me use)

[VladD]

Benrad said:

VladD said:

Hi.

Martin Brundle occasionally talks about how much force it takes to push the brake pedal in a F1 car. However, I thought all F1 car use brake by wire these days, so if the driver isn't actually having to force hydraulic fluid through pipes, why is the big force needed?

I'm guessing I'm missing something obvious, so apologies in advance for any required face palm.

Cheers.

Not the OP but I think that's down to muscle memory, much easier to produce a consistent response with a reasonable amount of pressure. In every other formula they were used to big pressure so reducing it might actually make consistent braking more difficult.

Turning a race car on the limit is as much about how you apply and release brakes as it is what you do with the steering wheel

Sim racers use load cell or even hydraulic brake pedals to allow for consistency (rather than the cheap potentiometer pedals plebs like me use)

Interesting, thanks. So as BBW gets cheaper and works it's way down the formulas it could get to the point that the pedal force required is reduced so that you still get feel but don't need the legs of a superhuman.

I have a sim racing rig myself and, now that you mention it, have often thought about upping the spring rate on the brake pedal.

[SturdyHSV]

VladD said:

Benrad said:

VladD said:

Hi.

Martin Brundle occasionally talks about how much force it takes to push the brake pedal in a F1 car. However, I thought all F1 car use brake by wire these days, so if the driver isn't actually having to force hydraulic fluid through pipes, why is the big force needed?

I'm guessing I'm missing something obvious, so apologies in advance for any required face palm.

Cheers.

Not the OP but I think that's down to muscle memory, much easier to produce a consistent response with a reasonable amount of pressure. In every other formula they were used to big pressure so reducing it might actually make consistent braking more difficult.

Turning a race car on the limit is as much about how you apply and release brakes as it is what you do with the steering wheel

Sim racers use load cell or even hydraulic brake pedals to allow for consistency (rather than the cheap potentiometer pedals plebs like me use)

Interesting, thanks. So as BBW gets cheaper and works it's way down the formulas it could get to the point that the pedal force required is reduced so that you still get feel but don't need the legs of a superhuman.

I have a sim racing rig myself and, now that you mention it, have often thought about upping the spring rate on the brake pedal.

In sim racing it is indeed as he says, that for muscle memory it's much easier for your brain to reproduce and modulate a force as opposed to just moving your foot a specific distance, so a stiffer pedal with a load cell tends to produce more consistent braking.

It makes some basic logical sense too, when bouncing around in a car, your foot won't always be in exactly the same position and so you'll be applying brake pressure by feel and force as opposed to millimetric movements fore and aft whilst also being subjected to the ridiculous G forces under braking.

[kiseca]

Benrad said:

VladD said:

Hi.

Martin Brundle occasionally talks about how much force it takes to push the brake pedal in a F1 car. However, I thought all F1 car use brake by wire these days, so if the driver isn't actually having to force hydraulic fluid through pipes, why is the big force needed?

I'm guessing I'm missing something obvious, so apologies in advance for any required face palm.

Cheers.

Not the OP but I think that's down to muscle memory, much easier to produce a consistent response with a reasonable amount of pressure. In every other formula they were used to big pressure so reducing it might actually make consistent braking more difficult.

Turning a race car on the limit is as much about how you apply and release brakes as it is what you do with the steering wheel

Sim racers use load cell or even hydraulic brake pedals to allow for consistency (rather than the cheap potentiometer pedals plebs like me use)

Also not the op but I'd guess feedback might have something to do with it? If the driver wants to be on the absolute edge of adhesion, he needs some kind of signal back from the wheels. For that, I'd have thought there would be some kind of feedback loop in the braking system not pure FBW.

[Gary C]

VladD said:

Interesting, thanks. So as BBW gets cheaper and works it's way down the formulas it could get to the point that the pedal force required is reduced so that you still get feel but don't need the legs of a superhuman.

I have a sim racing rig myself and, now that you mention it, have often thought about upping the spring rate on the brake pedal.

I have the load cell for my wheel, it is better.

[Benrad]

kiseca said:

Benrad said:

VladD said:

Hi.

Martin Brundle occasionally talks about how much force it takes to push the brake pedal in a F1 car. However, I thought all F1 car use brake by wire these days, so if the driver isn't actually having to force hydraulic fluid through pipes, why is the big force needed?

I'm guessing I'm missing something obvious, so apologies in advance for any required face palm.

Cheers.

Not the OP but I think that's down to muscle memory, much easier to produce a consistent response with a reasonable amount of pressure. In every other formula they were used to big pressure so reducing it might actually make consistent braking more difficult.

Turning a race car on the limit is as much about how you apply and release brakes as it is what you do with the steering wheel

Sim racers use load cell or even hydraulic brake pedals to allow for consistency (rather than the cheap potentiometer pedals plebs like me use)

Also not the op but I'd guess feedback might have something to do with it? If the driver wants to be on the absolute edge of adhesion, he needs some kind of signal back from the wheels. For that, I'd have thought there would be some kind of feedback loop in the braking system not pure FBW.

"Real" brake pedals don't give feedback (well, other than the kick back from an ABS pump).

Clutch pedals do by virtue of their geometry

[anonymous-user]

Benrad said:

"Real" brake pedals don't give feedback (well, other than the kick back from an ABS pump).

Clutch pedals do by virtue of their geometry

Race drivers use pressure as a control feedback, it's absolutely essential to reduce pedal travel to the minimum.

[456mgt]

jsf said:

Race drivers use pressure as a control feedback, it's absolutely essential to reduce pedal travel to the minimum.

I think it's more a question of degree. I drove a Williams FW33 a couple of years ago and they were monitoring everything from the pits. Thing is, I was hitting the brake pedal absolutely as hard as I could and it was still only registering 40psi versus 80psi from the real drivers. I wanted to brake harder; physically I couldn't.

[kiseca]

Benrad said:

kiseca said:

Benrad said:

VladD said:

Hi.

Martin Brundle occasionally talks about how much force it takes to push the brake pedal in a F1 car. However, I thought all F1 car use brake by wire these days, so if the driver isn't actually having to force hydraulic fluid through pipes, why is the big force needed?

I'm guessing I'm missing something obvious, so apologies in advance for any required face palm.

Cheers.

Not the OP but I think that's down to muscle memory, much easier to produce a consistent response with a reasonable amount of pressure. In every other formula they were used to big pressure so reducing it might actually make consistent braking more difficult.

Turning a race car on the limit is as much about how you apply and release brakes as it is what you do with the steering wheel

Sim racers use load cell or even hydraulic brake pedals to allow for consistency (rather than the cheap potentiometer pedals plebs like me use)

Also not the op but I'd guess feedback might have something to do with it? If the driver wants to be on the absolute edge of adhesion, he needs some kind of signal back from the wheels. For that, I'd have thought there would be some kind of feedback loop in the braking system not pure FBW.

"Real" brake pedals don't give feedback (well, other than the kick back from an ABS pump).

Clutch pedals do by virtue of their geometry

Yeah but no but....

OK yeah you're right The feedback from a locked wheel will come through the chassis or steering wheel. My mistake!

[Benrad]

kiseca said:

Yeah but no but....

OK yeah you're right The feedback from a locked wheel will come through the chassis or steering wheel. My mistake!

A sensible discussion on PH where someone admits they're wrong, I must be dreaming!

[kiseca]

Benrad said:

kiseca said:

Yeah but no but....

OK yeah you're right The feedback from a locked wheel will come through the chassis or steering wheel. My mistake!

A sensible discussion on PH where someone admits they're wrong, I must be dreaming!

When one is being stupid, first part of cure has to be recognising when one is being stupid

[CallMeLegend]

456mgt said:

jsf said:

Race drivers use pressure as a control feedback, it's absolutely essential to reduce pedal travel to the minimum.

I think it's more a question of degree. I drove a Williams FW33 a couple of years ago and they were monitoring everything from the pits. Thing is, I was hitting the brake pedal absolutely as hard as I could and it was still only registering 40psi versus 80psi from the real drivers. I wanted to brake harder; physically I couldn't.

You are a very lucky badger

[AnonymousF1]

CheesecakeRunner said:

No problem. I work as a software engineer, and often a novel solution to a problem will be produced and I sit back an think “Wow, I wish I’d come up with that”. Is there anything like that for you?

Yes, regularly. You spend a lot of time developing, designing and iterating a concept ahead of the solution making it to the track. Sometimes you'll see a competitor turn-up one race event earlier with a design that does a similar thing, in a neater fashion and think 'if only we'd done that'. Sometimes you'll be first to track with something, only for a competitor to copy, re-engineer and be at the track with their version in a much shorter lead time.

[AnonymousF1]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

Not sure I agree. Ant Davidson is a fantastic driver in his own rights. Not sure he ever got a decent opportunity in F1?

anonymous said:

[redacted]

Very. Usually it's a case of compromising another part of the lap to give them what they want where they feel it's weakest. Then they complain about the bit you had to compromise...

anonymous said:

[redacted]

They do.

anonymous said:

[redacted]

Chicken or egg? Usually you take a car apart to replace something that's broken or not performing as you wish. If you have a reliable platform you don't need to take it apart so often.

anonymous said:

[redacted]

Yes, they always stand-out - in the same way fans/spectators would notice.

anonymous said:

[redacted]

No idea. Perhaps they fancied a change?

anonymous said:

[redacted]

I don't believe that's a usual measure of a driver's performance. In Q the drivers will drive at the peak of their ability to minimise lap time. In the race they have to manage cooling, tyres, fuel and a host of other parameters. I think Kimi is famous for his 'just leave me alone/let me get on with it' attitude, but he still has to do all the above.

[AnonymousF1]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

The mapping of the engine is exceptionally highly tuned, and variable across engines, cars, drivers preferences. It's impossible to say.

anonymous said:

[redacted]

Very. I'm sure they compete outside of F1 on things like running times, etc.

anonymous said:

[redacted]

I think he's fitter than you think, or lets on.

anonymous said:

[redacted]

There are various driver-selectable throttle maps available, and lots of development goes in to pedal shaping. I think the current regs prevent ones that alter the throttle response by corner, automatically.

anonymous said:

[redacted]

Yes. If you watch a race live at the track you see how much more the cars 'move around' as your point of reference/viewing frame is very different to a camera following the car's motion.

anonymous said:

[redacted]

Firstly - experience, built from a young age. Then physical training (gym/stamina/high altitude/etcetera), but they also train hard mentally. I think the Netflix series gives good insight to what they do behind the scenes/in the off-season.

anonymous said:

[redacted]

Through simulation and computer modelling.

anonymous said:

[redacted]

It's different for every team, and sometimes different per employee, but I think it's mostly common to reward based on championship position these days.

anonymous said:

[redacted]

Yes. I think the Banks pulling out after the credit crunch was a bigger issue.

anonymous said:

[redacted]

I don't believe coming second only to Lewis is 'struggling'.

anonymous said:

[redacted]

That would be more of a personal opinion, there's no official 'insiders' view. I think anyone who's WDC and beat Lewis is extremely good.

[AnonymousF1]

Fantomas said:

Couple of questions...
Do drivers tent to mix with crew/engineers “off duty” during Grand Prix weekend or the majority of them sticks together ?

Away from the circuit, not so much. They tend to have their own entourage of family, personal trainers, manager, etc.

Fantomas said:

During your career have you ever been good pale with particular drivers ?

Yes, I'd like to think so.

[AnonymousF1]

Gary C said:

How much sleep do you get over a race weekend

Not as bad as it used to be since the curfews were added to the Sporting Regs. Without the curfews, very little.

[AnonymousF1]

robinessex said:

I'm always reading of the sensitivity of the cars to aero, and ride height. Why then do the drivers then promptly take them out, and fly 6" high over the kerbs?

Usually aggressive kerb riding only happens in low speed corners where aero load is low, and net laptime benefit is positive.

(Good question and good pictures, by the way)

[CedricN]

Interesting, do you guys work with of the shelf software like GT suite etc for engine and dynamic simulations etc or is it in house developed? Or maybe both?

[mattikake]

AnonymousF1 said:

pistonheadforum said:

Have you ever worked with anybody who is a lead-swinging-by-the-book-sorry-on-me-tea-break-that's-not-my-job-out-the-door-by-4:30 sharp type or are they all super keen do anything superstars pulling all nighters?

No-to-the-first-bit, yes but to differing extents for the second bit. Everyone is keen, not everyone is super-keen.

Haha yes that's true. People are people. I worked for redbull for a time (nothing serious just helping out in the parts store) and I was a bit disappointed by how few people liked talking about F1, when I was ready to go on for hours. Probably desensitized to it. They were more interested in Subaru's and bikes. So I went back to letching over the fact I was actually handling F1 car parts and getting paid for it.