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Total loss said:
I dont think it's the same, as in a kart you are part of the suspension, ie moving your weight to change the chassis to go around a corner quicker, so lots more than just driving.
Not really. I karted for 10 years and other than Gillard drivers trying to make their karts trikes, no-one bothered trying to be mobile ballast. I was also equally successful in Juniors carrying all the weight as lead as I was in Cadet carrying most of the wight as me - could be driving style of course, I was a Wright / Arc man not a Gillard type!robinessex said:
Put me, and some others, in a scheme to progress up to an F1 drive, and I think myself, and quite a few others, would be able to post a respectable time. Now, give me a top-flight rally car. and I think my courage would give up before I managed a respectable time.
Honestly it's harder than you think. I attended enough Young Driver and post-race tests in F1 to see how hard it is for the young herberts to get themselves up to pace - and remember we're talking about kids who'd come straight from GP2 and had prepared for the test by spending a few hours in the simulator first, the week before their test. In most cases they'd also raced in GP2 the previous weekend, so they knew the track well. It's tough and there's a lot more going on than you think. Only a couple genuinely adapted and got down to a really good time in under a day - Ocon and Russell are the two I remember the most. Ocon was stunning and basically finished Wehrlein's F1 career when they ran together at a couple of tests. I never worked with Vandoorne but friends in McLaren said they were stunned after his first test - he's the greatest lost talent of his generation. But anyway...Even in the world I inhabit now, in GT3, the difference between the really good Am drivers (and I mean hooky Bronzes who are testing constantly and have simulators at home) and a proper Pro is several seconds - let's say 103%. This is after the Ams have been endlessly coached by Pros, watched countless in-car videos, looked at all the data and, in their minds, know exactly what they need to do. When push comes to shove it's actually really bloody difficult, especially when you need to repeat it lap after lap...
The top drivers, in any category, are really, really good and while I'm sure there are many people on PH who are pretty handy they would not get anywhere near a pro.
HardtopManual said:
markcoznottz said:
It comes to something when the posters are creating better content than the op...
It comes to something when someone who has added absolutely nothing to the thread starts moaning about someone giving up their time to offer us insights into F1 engineering.
ks? Not sure I can agree here =)Damon Hill, Schumacher and others were well known for developing and setting up the cars, giving feedback along the way. Damon was a test driver for Williams first as well.
OP are you saying nowadays it's more about the car, really?
Lewis literally turns up at pre season testing and adjusts it to his taste?
Hes not in the factory at all, doing any test miles when it's out of the box raw and doesn't sit in extensive briefings?
OP are you saying nowadays it's more about the car, really?
Lewis literally turns up at pre season testing and adjusts it to his taste?
Hes not in the factory at all, doing any test miles when it's out of the box raw and doesn't sit in extensive briefings?
VladD said:
Hi.
Martin Brundle occasionally talks about how much force it takes to push the brake pedal in a F1 car. However, I thought all F1 car use brake by wire these days, so if the driver isn't actually having to force hydraulic fluid through pipes, why is the big force needed?
I'm guessing I'm missing something obvious, so apologies in advance for any required face palm.
Cheers.
Martin brundle couldn’t use his left foot properly after his massive crash at Dallas ‘84, I don’t think he can generate enough force. Besides which his era in F1 largely predates left foot braking. Martin Brundle occasionally talks about how much force it takes to push the brake pedal in a F1 car. However, I thought all F1 car use brake by wire these days, so if the driver isn't actually having to force hydraulic fluid through pipes, why is the big force needed?
I'm guessing I'm missing something obvious, so apologies in advance for any required face palm.
Cheers.
‘Then when I had to compete with Michael and Mika, it (right foot braking) became a hindrance because they could rotate the car into the slow corners and use thier left foot on the brake and pick up the throttle and transfer between the two pedals. Ina way that I just couldn’t do. So unfortunately that crash in Dallas ‘84 was probably the key reason I underperformed in F1’
markcoznottz said:
VladD said:
Hi.
Martin Brundle occasionally talks about how much force it takes to push the brake pedal in a F1 car. However, I thought all F1 car use brake by wire these days, so if the driver isn't actually having to force hydraulic fluid through pipes, why is the big force needed?
I'm guessing I'm missing something obvious, so apologies in advance for any required face palm.
Cheers.
Martin brundle couldn’t use his left foot properly after his massive crash at Dallas ‘84, I don’t think he can generate enough force. Besides which his era in F1 largely predates left foot braking. Martin Brundle occasionally talks about how much force it takes to push the brake pedal in a F1 car. However, I thought all F1 car use brake by wire these days, so if the driver isn't actually having to force hydraulic fluid through pipes, why is the big force needed?
I'm guessing I'm missing something obvious, so apologies in advance for any required face palm.
Cheers.
‘Then when I had to compete with Michael and Mika, it (right foot braking) became a hindrance because they could rotate the car into the slow corners and use thier left foot on the brake and pick up the throttle and transfer between the two pedals. Ina way that I just couldn’t do. So unfortunately that crash in Dallas ‘84 was probably the key reason I underperformed in F1’
AnonymousF1 said:
Usually aggressive kerb riding only happens in low speed corners where aero load is low, and net laptime benefit is positive.
(Good question and good pictures, by the way)
"Usually"...(Good question and good pictures, by the way)
Ok, so Mika made a mistake on entry but it's unfair to have talk of cars getting airborne on curbs and not share THE image that defines the term 'airborne over the curb'
I love the comment Mike and his engineer made when the photographer showed them the image...
“I took it to show Mika, he was flabbergasted, saying ‘Are you sure that’s me!?” Then he showed his engineer who said ‘That’s why there was a blip on the telemetry…’
jsf said:
markcoznottz said:
It was 1992 iirc. Fast Lane magazine. And Mark Hales was a good semi pro driver as well. My mate went to the f1 experience at Mallory I was supposed to go but had a funeral that day. It was a 1988 tyrrell that was fitted with a f3000 engine, ie a rev limited dfv maybe 400 bhp ish. Plenty round Mallory. He enjoyed it needless to say was cheap as well, an opportunity missed I think.
Its amazing Mark managed to fit in a Leyton House, they are tiny cockpits. I bet he could hardly work the controls.Or the feet-in-gaffa-tape may have been when he drove Mason's ex-Villeneuve Ferrari. I don't quite remember.
If I can find the article I'll have a look through.
TheDeuce said:
Isn't the high level of force partly required to offset the weight of the driver under braking force? I know they're strapped in tight but even a small shift forwards under braking would interfere with how much they intended to brake - if the pedal were weighted as it would be in a road car.
The force required is down to the design of the pedal/master cylinder of old etc., as it can easily be varied by changing pivot points, its all about mechanical ratios, its still relevant in other racing & while the leg effort required is more than normal drivers would ever use, its not that bad when you are used to it.Today with fly by wire brakes, I'd think just a couple of clicks on a laptop could make the effort needed to be very small, but drivers prefer to have to put a lot of pressure in.
TheDeuce said:
Isn't the high level of force partly required to offset the weight of the driver under braking force? I know they're strapped in tight but even a small shift forwards under braking would interfere with how much they intended to brake - if the pedal were weighted as it would be in a road car.
Im not quite sure what you mean?Race car brakes need a lot of force applied to the pedal due to lack of powrr assistance on the front system. Rear is now electronically controlled.
Total loss said:
The force required is down to the design of the pedal/master cylinder of old etc., as it can easily be varied by changing pivot points, its all about mechanical ratios, its still relevant in other racing & while the leg effort required is more than normal drivers would ever use, its not that bad when you are used to it.
Today with fly by wire brakes, I'd think just a couple of clicks on a laptop could make the effort needed to be very small, but drivers prefer to have to put a lot of pressure in.
I should check, but i thought the front is still fully manual without power assist.Today with fly by wire brakes, I'd think just a couple of clicks on a laptop could make the effort needed to be very small, but drivers prefer to have to put a lot of pressure in.
You tend to use between 1:3 and 1:5 on a brake pedal, too big a ratio gives a long pedal, no driver likes that as your feedback is all about pressure, you want literally zero travel for best performance.
jsf said:
I should check, but i thought the front is still fully manual without power assist.
You tend to use between 1:3 and 1:5 on a brake pedal, too big a ratio gives a long pedal, no driver likes that as your feedback is all about pressure, you want literally zero travel for best performance.
I don't know about the fronts, they could be still fully mechanical, I've read before about F1 brakes being electrically activated, I assumed both front & rear?You tend to use between 1:3 and 1:5 on a brake pedal, too big a ratio gives a long pedal, no driver likes that as your feedback is all about pressure, you want literally zero travel for best performance.
I was being very simplistic with my explanation, probably too much, yes pedal feel is everything, not all drivers preferring the same set up, when you have different drivers driving the same car, some will say alls good and another will say the brakes require too much effort or the pedal is too long!
Total loss said:
I don't know about the fronts, they could be still fully mechanical, I've read before about F1 brakes being electrically activated, I assumed both front & rear?
I was being very simplistic with my explanation, probably too much, yes pedal feel is everything, not all drivers preferring the same set up, when you have different drivers driving the same car, some will say alls good and another will say the brakes require too much effort or the pedal is too long!
Pretty sure its fully mechanical front.I was being very simplistic with my explanation, probably too much, yes pedal feel is everything, not all drivers preferring the same set up, when you have different drivers driving the same car, some will say alls good and another will say the brakes require too much effort or the pedal is too long!
I worked with one professional driver who had a life changing crash which destroyed his ability to put brake force into the pedal, it needed a big compromise on cylinder sizing i wouldn't do with any other driver, the pedal travel was huge but its all he could manage.
Total loss said:
jsf said:
I should check, but i thought the front is still fully manual without power assist.
You tend to use between 1:3 and 1:5 on a brake pedal, too big a ratio gives a long pedal, no driver likes that as your feedback is all about pressure, you want literally zero travel for best performance.
I don't know about the fronts, they could be still fully mechanical, I've read before about F1 brakes being electrically activated, I assumed both front & rear?You tend to use between 1:3 and 1:5 on a brake pedal, too big a ratio gives a long pedal, no driver likes that as your feedback is all about pressure, you want literally zero travel for best performance.
I was being very simplistic with my explanation, probably too much, yes pedal feel is everything, not all drivers preferring the same set up, when you have different drivers driving the same car, some will say alls good and another will say the brakes require too much effort or the pedal is too long!
Obviously if it's still mechanically linked to the front and unassisted then that resistance is there regardless of preference.
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