2021 F1 cars thread
Discussion
jsf said:
angrymoby said:
TheDeuce said:
By your example, several different nations flag is the same flag - just flipped or rotated 
i.e not the sameangrymoby said:
TheDeuce said:
I apologise for the daftness of my example.. but the point stands. A flag is a precise thing, it's considered an insult if a mildly incorrect flag is raised for a visiting dignitory...
I think mazepins and Haas's standing is actually fairly solid. The logo they use isn't technically 'the flag'. End of story.
ill fwd your expert opinion onto WADAI think mazepins and Haas's standing is actually fairly solid. The logo they use isn't technically 'the flag'. End of story.
& in the meantime ill bookmark this for later comment
Unless you mean the thing about flags being precise... That's absolutely not an opinion. It's just a fact. The rendering of all flags can be given mathematically, that's the only way the flag could be accurately recreated across large distances.
Whatever power WADA have or decision they influence, it will not change the facts. Either it's a flag or it isn't.
TheDeuce said:
I apologise for the daftness of my example.. but the point stands. A flag is a precise thing, it's considered an insult if a mildly incorrect flag is raised for a visiting dignitory...
I think mazepins and Haas's standing is actually fairly solid. The logo they use isn't technically 'the flag'. End of story.
From what I can gather:I think mazepins and Haas's standing is actually fairly solid. The logo they use isn't technically 'the flag'. End of story.
-Russian athletes are banned from displaying Russian flag
-Haas sponsor puts logo (98% like Russian flag) on car but not on their website.
Isn't going to require a genius to see through this.
aston80 said:
From what I can gather:
-Russian athletes are banned from displaying Russian flag
-Haas sponsor puts logo (98% like Russian flag) on car but not on their website.
Isn't going to require a genius to see through this.
In fairness it looks like that site hasn't been updated since the mid 90s.-Russian athletes are banned from displaying Russian flag
-Haas sponsor puts logo (98% like Russian flag) on car but not on their website.
Isn't going to require a genius to see through this.
aston80 said:
TheDeuce said:
I apologise for the daftness of my example.. but the point stands. A flag is a precise thing, it's considered an insult if a mildly incorrect flag is raised for a visiting dignitory...
I think mazepins and Haas's standing is actually fairly solid. The logo they use isn't technically 'the flag'. End of story.
From what I can gather:I think mazepins and Haas's standing is actually fairly solid. The logo they use isn't technically 'the flag'. End of story.
-Russian athletes are banned from displaying Russian flag
-Haas sponsor puts logo (98% like Russian flag) on car but not on their website.
Isn't going to require a genius to see through this.
This isn't an argument about whether or not it looks an awful lot like the Russian flag or the fact they're doing it to undermine the rules as applied to them. Its an argument about whether or not a something that looks very much like the Russian flag technically breaks the rules. I don't see that it does - sadly.
Imo the rules (definition of what constitutes a flag) should have been far tighter - this is an obvious workaround.
If WADA/FIA sanction Haas and they fight back and appeal until it goes to an open court.. In court an obvious test would be for the court to consider the situation inverted. IE: If the court were dealing with a case of a person paying for an authentic Russian flag print and they received a print of what is on the car, would it be fair to say they got what they paid for?
If it was all wavy lines as on the livery and the proportions all messed up as a result, would the court decide is was close enough the flag to design to be reasonably described as a copy of the flag? I think the court would be more likely go along with describing what is on the car as an individual design that simply borrows colours from the flag - which imo is more accurate.
If Italy were banned from competing in the same way Russia are and Ferrari had the tricolor on the engine cover and driver overalls, would you think they were operating against the ban?
All this semantics about a flag having to be a precise xyz is beyond autistic; the paintjob is obviously a display of Russia's National Colours in defiance of the ban. The FIA and Liberty are possibly ingratiated with Russians and have taken an initial view. It wouldn't be the first time they align themselves with questionable regimes- it gives some fairly awful states patronage in exchange for cash and turning a blind eye (middle East, I'm looking at you). It's funny how tolerant you can be of abhorrent behaviour relative to the cash being handed out.
All this semantics about a flag having to be a precise xyz is beyond autistic; the paintjob is obviously a display of Russia's National Colours in defiance of the ban. The FIA and Liberty are possibly ingratiated with Russians and have taken an initial view. It wouldn't be the first time they align themselves with questionable regimes- it gives some fairly awful states patronage in exchange for cash and turning a blind eye (middle East, I'm looking at you). It's funny how tolerant you can be of abhorrent behaviour relative to the cash being handed out.
RonaldMcDonaldAteMyCat said:
All this semantics about a flag having to be a precise xyz is beyond autistic; the paintjob is obviously a display of Russia's National Colours in defiance of the ban. The FIA and Liberty are possibly ingratiated with Russians and have taken an initial view. It wouldn't be the first time they align themselves with questionable regimes- it gives some fairly awful states patronage in exchange for cash and turning a blind eye (middle East, I'm looking at you). It's funny how tolerant you can be of abhorrent behaviour relative to the cash being handed out.
Quite agree, it's shocking that flouting of the rules often is ignored one way or another if it's in the sports interests to do so.I don't agree that it's possible to be overly semantic in terms of discussing if something does or does not break a rule. Rules are rules, and the rule in this instance is that they can't race under or display the Russian flag. In determining whether or not that rule has been broken, clearly you're gonna need to get pretty anal about at what point a selection of colours and shapes can reasonably be described as a flag.
RonaldMcDonaldAteMyCat said:
Can you think of any reason those colours in that order were chosen for the HAAS livery, other than a display of the Russian Colours?
they can run Russian colours, they can even run them in the order of white, blue, red- but they can't make them look like the Russian flag (the approved ROC logo for Russian athletes in Tokyo & Beijing gives an idea of what WADA deems acceptable)so some (well, just Deuce it would seem) presumably take the Russian flag to be a 2:3 Tricolor with 3 equal horizontal fields of white, blue, red & anything that doesn't fit that exact criteria isn't in their eyes a Russian flag
I'm not sure WADA are going to agree (using the ROC logo as their criteria) ...& that's without the deliberate attempt to circumnavigate the rules (by subsequently changing your company logo) -which is the issue that has got Russia into a whole lot of trouble in the first place
TheDeuce said:
it's considered an insult if a mildly incorrect flag is raised for a visiting dignitory...
only an upside down flag is considered an insult & i wouldn't class that as mildly incorrect ...although if you are right, there are going to be a lot of pissed off Americans when they figure that the color scheme they thought was all about their team & their country is now actually 'mildly incorrect' & actually Russian Edited by angrymoby on Saturday 6th March 20:07
angrymoby said:
RonaldMcDonaldAteMyCat said:
Can you think of any reason those colours in that order were chosen for the HAAS livery, other than a display of the Russian Colours?
they can run Russian colours, they can even run them in the order of white, blue, red- but they can't make them look like the Russian flag (the approved ROC logo for Russian athletes in Tokyo & Beijing gives an idea of what WADA deems acceptable)so some (well, just Deuce it would seem) presumably take the Russian flag to be a 2:3 Tricolor with 3 equal horizontal fields of white, blue, red & anything that doesn't fit that exact criteria isn't in their eyes a Russian flag
I'm not sure WADA are going to agree (using the ROC logo as their criteria) ...& that's without the deliberate attempt to circumnavigate the rules (by subsequently changing your company logo) -which is the issue that has got Russia into a whole lot of trouble in the first place
Edited by angrymoby on Saturday 6th March 19:43
They'll take the piss in terms of the logo, of course they will. But they know the powers that be are also aware that mazepins money is important and is maintaining an otherwise endangered 10th team.
I'm really not suggesting that what is on the car doesn't look like the Russian flag, and I'm not defending their intentions for changing the logo or their disrespect for the rules. I'm simply being realistic - in terms of proving the rules have been broken, it's not going to be particularly easy to quantify if what they have done is technically a flag... And if mazepin digs his heels in (it's his choice to do so, not Haas or the sports), and it goes to an open court - WADA and the FIA could stumble on the same technicality.
Sometimes it's better not to have the battle in the first place. Or more likely, mazepin will adapt the logo to make it slightly less flag like and everyone will be just about satisfied enough to grumpily forget and move on.
jsf said:
Shoot me, we have hit peak tedious.
well, at least Deuce & i have the self awareness to appreciate how dull/ boring/ bored we areCraigyp79 said:
Who would have thought, just a handful of years ago that we would be discussing whether or not the only American team in F1 would be allowed to display the Russian flag on their cars.....
people are probably used to the idea of Russian money being pumped into all things American by nowEdited by angrymoby on Sunday 7th March 09:21
Gassing Station | Formula 1 | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff