The Official F1 2022 silly season *contains speculation*
Discussion
Deesee said:
Ricciardo torpedoed his own career, left top team rather than fight, join a lower midfield team with a minimal budget (with the same PU), ended up in court suing his own advisor over the monies for the Renault deal.
I call BS. DR left RB because they told him MV was the chosen one and he had to be No2. Simple as that.TheDeuce said:
He was a top driver in a top car.
He was in a second rate car at best. They were picking up occasional lucky wins as best-of-the-rest when Mercedes dropped the ball, but even in their best season they were scoring barely more than half the points that Mercedes were. They were and are a long way off challenging for either title.Another contributing factor may have been that he left just as they were about to switch to Honda, and he'd just witnessed three years of Honda disasters with McLaren.
thegreenhell said:
TheDeuce said:
He was a top driver in a top car.
He was in a second rate car at best. They were picking up occasional lucky wins as best-of-the-rest when Mercedes dropped the ball, but even in their best season they were scoring barely more than half the points that Mercedes were. They were and are a long way off challenging for either title.Another contributing factor may have been that he left just as they were about to switch to Honda, and he'd just witnessed three years of Honda disasters with McLaren.
Honda power could have been a factor - but if that worried DR after seeing Mclaren's experience, I would have thought that moving to Renault after having spent the last couple of years DNF'ing endlessly with their PU might have concerned him too!
KernowSid said:
Lots of news sites reporting Williams have agreed to be customer team of Alpine as of 2022.
Plan to provide seats for Alpine young driver programme.
Was only reported a few weeks ago the new Williams owners were looking to strengthen ties with Mercedes though?
Interesting. I also thought they were talking about strengthening ties, hence Williams getting the full use of the Mercedes gearbox from 2022 to go with the PU they already have contracted to 2025.Plan to provide seats for Alpine young driver programme.
Was only reported a few weeks ago the new Williams owners were looking to strengthen ties with Mercedes though?
Could it be that Mercedes have already signed Russell for '22? I wonder if there is a clause in the Williams/Mercedes deal that means Williams no longer getting Mercedes supply if they no longer have a Merc junior in their car. I suppose its possible?
Maybe it will just be an agreement to place junior Renault/Alpine drivers there but be totally separate to the Mercedes supply of kit?
There will be test days through the year for the 2022 18" tyres, involving all teams except Williams, there's no reason given for Williams not testing them. https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/article.pirelli...
TwentyFive said:
KernowSid said:
Lots of news sites reporting Williams have agreed to be customer team of Alpine as of 2022.
Plan to provide seats for Alpine young driver programme.
Was only reported a few weeks ago the new Williams owners were looking to strengthen ties with Mercedes though?
Interesting. I also thought they were talking about strengthening ties, hence Williams getting the full use of the Mercedes gearbox from 2022 to go with the PU they already have contracted to 2025.Plan to provide seats for Alpine young driver programme.
Was only reported a few weeks ago the new Williams owners were looking to strengthen ties with Mercedes though?
Could it be that Mercedes have already signed Russell for '22? I wonder if there is a clause in the Williams/Mercedes deal that means Williams no longer getting Mercedes supply if they no longer have a Merc junior in their car. I suppose its possible?
Maybe it will just be an agreement to place junior Renault/Alpine drivers there but be totally separate to the Mercedes supply of kit?
Does seem an odd conflict of stories. We know as fact they're increasing the Merc partnership, they have said as much. So how can they also be a Renault (Alpine) 'customer'. Customer of what exactly? Just access to Alpine academy drivers as opposed to Mercedes? Why would that actually be overall better for Williams?
aston80 said:
Deesee said:
The thing with Dani, I still can’t fathom walking away from a top team at your best years, (I understand the money), I don’t think he will ever get another top drive, he had a great 2020 and is a great driver, but unless there’s some seismic change in the balance of the grid and McLaren having a ‘dominant’ car grabbing 2/3 podiums a year is the best he can do now & he would do that in the Renault or the McLaren IMO.
He was being treated second-best constantly to Max. Must have been a horrible, demoralising environment.
And it made sense too. By the time drivers reach Formula 1, for most of them, usually in the first year or 2nd year latest they are showing all the speed they're ever going to have, but they lack experience and make lots of mistakes. There are exceptions of course, but in general Formula 1 drivers get more consistent. They don't get any faster.
Ricciardo was Max's equal in terms of results (actually was beating him until that last season when his run of terrible reliability hit), but Max looked like the faster driver of the two while Ricciardo's consistency made up the difference.
So if they were both roughly equal at that point, I'd think Horner would be thinking Max is going to get better, while Ricciardo is at his peak now. So they're equal this season, but the next one, or the one after that, Max's speed advantage will remain, his consistency will improve, and he'll be the better driver of the two.
I'm certain Horner saw Max as his next world champion, and Ricciardo as a great driver to have in the second car. That's why they'd throw the budget at securing Max, they'd give Max more attention with new car parts or with the direction to develop the car, and why when Horner spoke about Ricciardo it was with the normal corporate supportive and encouraging tone you'd expect from a modern boss, and when he spoke about Max his excitement for the future shone right through. And whenever Ricciardo won Horner would mention it was a shame about Max's car (or mistake) because, basically, if Dan could win in that car imagine what Max would have done....
That's all my opinion but that's what it looked and sounded like to me on TV. I wasn't surprised when Ricciardo expressed similar sentiments.
I also don't neccessarily think that Horner was wrong if that was his assessment of the two drivers, either. Max is now, IMO, the standout top driver on the grid apart from Lewis, and if those two ended up in the same car, I have my opinions how it would go, but not strongly enough that I'd put money on either of them against the other.
I think Ricciardo made the best choice for his career and future opportunities. I really like the guy, think he's a top driver and would love to see him back in a top car, and I'd much rather see him winning than Max, who I just don't like at all, but I'm sure it was never going to happen at Red Bull.
Pizzaeatingking said:
The story I read sounded more like they were taking the engine in return for academy drivers. Dunno what that means for the Merc deal though.
The man from Alpine explicitly said they were looking for an affiliate team for their academy drivers without having a corresponding engine supply deal. It was only one of the clickbait websites that misreported it. There is no engine deal, just an opportunity for Alpine to pay other teams to take their junior drivers.“Without a power unit supply or without any connections, there can still be a collaboration between other teams.
https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/154975/alpine-op...
Pizzaeatingking said:
The story I read sounded more like they were taking the engine in return for academy drivers. Dunno what that means for the Merc deal though.
That makes no sense - at least to me.The car sets the potential, the drivers skill determines how much of that potential they can realise..
So effectively downgrading your car to get a new drip feed of academy drivers makes little sense. I also don't understand why they thing Renault academy drivers are in some way better or more likely to hang around than Merc academy drivers
It's being widely reported so there is likely some nugget of truth behind it. But I just can't see the motivation being driver supply related. There would surely be more to it than that...?
thegreenhell said:
Mercedes have no more junior drivers coming up to replace Russell when he leaves. Renault have more juniors than they have seats available. Renault also have $$, and Williams need $$. Not a difficult equation to figure out.
Not a difficult equation, no. Simply an incomplete one.This isn't about Renault giving Williams $$ and even if it was, what do Renault get out of it? If they have contracted renault drivers they can't give seats to then obviously that is a potentially costly/wasteful position to deal with, but not so much so that they need to give money and/or engines to Williams.
And why Williams? I understand you point that Williams need a new driver but a) Renault is not their only option and b) What do they have of equivalent value to give to Renault by return?
The fact Renault may have an excess and Williams a needy requirement is just one half of the equation. What goes the other way to balance the books?
Edited by TheDeuce on Monday 1st March 22:17
TheDeuce said:
Not a difficult equation, no. Simply an incomplete one.
This isn't about Renault giving Williams $$ and even if it was, what do Renault get out of it? If they have contracted renault drivers they can't give seats to then obviously that is a potentially costly/wasteful position to deal with, but not so much so that they need to give money and/or engines to Williams.
And why Williams? I understand you point that Williams need a new driver but a) Renault is not their only option and b) What do they have of equivalent value to give to Renault by return?
The fact Renault may have an excess and Williams a needy requirement is just one half of the equation. What goes the other way to balance the books?
Surely the value for Renault/Alpine is they get to evaluate future drivers without using their own seat?This isn't about Renault giving Williams $$ and even if it was, what do Renault get out of it? If they have contracted renault drivers they can't give seats to then obviously that is a potentially costly/wasteful position to deal with, but not so much so that they need to give money and/or engines to Williams.
And why Williams? I understand you point that Williams need a new driver but a) Renault is not their only option and b) What do they have of equivalent value to give to Renault by return?
The fact Renault may have an excess and Williams a needy requirement is just one half of the equation. What goes the other way to balance the books?
Edited by TheDeuce on Monday 1st March 22:17
resolve10 said:
TheDeuce said:
Not a difficult equation, no. Simply an incomplete one.
This isn't about Renault giving Williams $$ and even if it was, what do Renault get out of it? If they have contracted renault drivers they can't give seats to then obviously that is a potentially costly/wasteful position to deal with, but not so much so that they need to give money and/or engines to Williams.
And why Williams? I understand you point that Williams need a new driver but a) Renault is not their only option and b) What do they have of equivalent value to give to Renault by return?
The fact Renault may have an excess and Williams a needy requirement is just one half of the equation. What goes the other way to balance the books?
Surely the value for Renault/Alpine is they get to evaluate future drivers without using their own seat?This isn't about Renault giving Williams $$ and even if it was, what do Renault get out of it? If they have contracted renault drivers they can't give seats to then obviously that is a potentially costly/wasteful position to deal with, but not so much so that they need to give money and/or engines to Williams.
And why Williams? I understand you point that Williams need a new driver but a) Renault is not their only option and b) What do they have of equivalent value to give to Renault by return?
The fact Renault may have an excess and Williams a needy requirement is just one half of the equation. What goes the other way to balance the books?
Edited by TheDeuce on Monday 1st March 22:17
Williams is a poor place to evaluate a drive - the car they have simply can't reach most battles let alone take part in them. Even with positive progress, that situation won't change overnight. I don't see driver evaluation at Williams being attractive enough to Renault to give Williams enough by return for Williams to give up on their current Merc loyalties.
I do fully appreciate the post cost cap importance of partnerships and effectively 'b-team' relationships. But the arrangements have to make sense still..
I'm just saying this Renault/Williams arrangement doesn't make sense to me as it's been explained so far. It may well be that there is another angle not yet reported on that could change that. But as it stands, it leaves me confused..
TheDeuce said:
Not a difficult equation, no. Simply an incomplete one.
This isn't about Renault giving Williams $$ and even if it was, what do Renault get out of it? If they have contracted renault drivers they can't give seats to then obviously that is a potentially costly/wasteful position to deal with, but not so much so that they need to give money and/or engines to Williams.
And why Williams? I understand you point that Williams need a new driver but a) Renault is not their only option and b) What do they have of equivalent value to give to Renault by return?
The fact Renault may have an excess and Williams a needy requirement is just one half of the equation. What goes the other way to balance the books?
I think some people are massively overthinking this.This isn't about Renault giving Williams $$ and even if it was, what do Renault get out of it? If they have contracted renault drivers they can't give seats to then obviously that is a potentially costly/wasteful position to deal with, but not so much so that they need to give money and/or engines to Williams.
And why Williams? I understand you point that Williams need a new driver but a) Renault is not their only option and b) What do they have of equivalent value to give to Renault by return?
The fact Renault may have an excess and Williams a needy requirement is just one half of the equation. What goes the other way to balance the books?
Edited by TheDeuce on Monday 1st March 22:17
For a start, nobody but some clickbait site has suggested that an engine deal is a possibility. That is a non-story.
Secondly, no credible source has named Williams as the target team. They are just the most likely, as having a probably empty seat next year with no obvious candidate for it. They also have a predilection for pay drivers, so would likely be the most amenable of all the teams to such a deal.
As for what Renault/Alpine get out of it, they will get exactly the same as all the other manufacturers who are placing their junior drivers at other teams before potentially moving them to the senior team. The fact that Williams are a Mercedes customer is irrelevant. Ocon is a Mercedes junior driving for Renault, afterall.
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