Discussion
WantSagaris said:
thiscocks said:
The green agenda is such a futile concept for motorsports to be following. No one watches motorsports because they want to see a load of eco warrior s
te trundling around a track with endless rules to try and make a dull concept interesting. It should be the complete antitheses of what the common man has to consider when buying a new car.
The green agenda is needed to attract investment. Car manufacturers don't want to invest in dated technology, one reason Honda pulled out.te trundling around a track with endless rules to try and make a dull concept interesting. It should be the complete antitheses of what the common man has to consider when buying a new car. When they got rid of grid girls there was the hype of anti-exploitation (ie F1's exploitation of young women) and doing what was best for them. The irony was overwhelming. They used them for years, and when it got politically difficult, they dumped them. I wonder how many they asked if they wanted to be sacked? If their intent was as they suggest, then it was paternalism at its worst. But they could not continue with them in the form they were being used.
With the green agenda that they have recently become so committed to, they were criticised in the press for the carbon footprint of each race, so they made changes that did not address the problem, but gave them a banner to hold up if they were accused of crimes against the environment. It was their only defence.
F1 doesn’t care about the BLM movement. However, to ban the kneeling would have given them an image problem, so it was allowed.
The answer is normally image when it comes to the difficult F1 questions.
It was the same with the safety improvements after the Senna and Ratzenberger deaths. The changes implemented by the bloke in charge, and the cause of much self-praise by him, had been proposed some time before, but why change? Oh, yes, Image, that’s why although, in this case there was the threat of legal challenges, particularly in Italy, that concentrated the minds.
coppice said:
You could try just judging drivers on what they achieve on track? Obviously, a driver's personal foibles might influence a judgement of the person - but that shouldn't really colour a judgment on his ability as a driver.
Judge the art, not the artist...
I agree to a certain extent and indeed I could just judge his achievements. I agree that he is a quick F1 driver, fair play but I still don't want him to win a WDC, would rather someone else then watch the fireworks Judge the art, not the artist...
The only reason they went hybrid is to pamper to the manufacturers, they will NOT stay involved long term if you went back to N/A engines, it HAS to be hybrid.
The current state of motoring only works for certain manufacturers like Porsche, Ferrari, Honda pulled out as it simply was not relevant, they want electric, Renault I dont really get, they are low budget cars, why are they are, history I expect and tradition.
I think the only way you can sell motorsport as a brand awareness, marketing exercise to owners and boards of directors is with a link to future tech,
Very few big series do not do this. Perhaps GT racing is the only one.
The current state of motoring only works for certain manufacturers like Porsche, Ferrari, Honda pulled out as it simply was not relevant, they want electric, Renault I dont really get, they are low budget cars, why are they are, history I expect and tradition.
I think the only way you can sell motorsport as a brand awareness, marketing exercise to owners and boards of directors is with a link to future tech,
Very few big series do not do this. Perhaps GT racing is the only one.
entropy said:
Why are manufacturers involved in F1/motorsport and how desperate do we need them?
I'm not patronising, but that's a fascinating question. Worth a thread all of its own. I've got an opinion, but it's changed over the years. At the moment, I'm happy to see them on the grid.
I was terribly excited when Renault disrupted the F1 status quo with the turbo in 1977 . Yes , Ford had funded the DFV , but it had no real influence over the sport, and Ferrari was nothing like the - retch - global brand it now has become . As more manufactures came in , especially Honda and BMW the sport reached new heights . But it started going tits up when the manufacturer and media tails started waving the F1 dog .
coppice said:
I was terribly excited when Renault disrupted the F1 status quo with the turbo in 1977 . Yes , Ford had funded the DFV , but it had no real influence over the sport, and Ferrari was nothing like the - retch - global brand it now has become . As more manufactures came in , especially Honda and BMW the sport reached new heights . But it started going tits up when the manufacturer and media tails started waving the F1 dog .
The manufacturers sided with FISA in the FISA-FOCA war.Biggest issue is what happens if you get rid of them.
They are largely there for brand awareness and marketing reasons, they get to rub shoulders with new folk and nick engineers and clever people etc.
Plus they can push aspects of their involvement to their own cars allegedly, though I think the only people that really do this are brakes, tyres and a few subsidiary suppliers.
I dont see Mercedes really doing anything in their road cars linked to f1, nor Ferrari or Renault.
Honda clearly thought so too as they ducked off remarkably quickly
They are largely there for brand awareness and marketing reasons, they get to rub shoulders with new folk and nick engineers and clever people etc.
Plus they can push aspects of their involvement to their own cars allegedly, though I think the only people that really do this are brakes, tyres and a few subsidiary suppliers.
I dont see Mercedes really doing anything in their road cars linked to f1, nor Ferrari or Renault.
Honda clearly thought so too as they ducked off remarkably quickly
GroundZero said:
jpf said:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but fans of F1 want to see the best racing in the world. The engine doesn't dictate fan interest in a race. The racing dictates the fan interest.
I would disagree (from my perspective as a long time F1/motorsport fan up until recent years).The engine is a core element of what is being raced. The combination of what the drivers are in control of versus the effects and competition of the resultant racing is a core element.
The V12 and V10 era gave a fantastic event for fans to experience, the sound, the volume, the shaking of the ground and the characteristics that each engine type gives to the arsenal of driver techniques that add to the racing is what made F1 what it is and what gathered in huge fan base.
It also allowed certain driver to turn themselves in to 'heros' and 'villans' of the sport which brought in the drama and the driver characters that many became fans of.
So although you say the racing dictates fan interest, that is only partially correct, because the "racing" in F1 is much more than just one car brand with a driver competing against another.
I have been watching some 90's champcar stuff on youtube recently and although alot of the races don't have that much overtaking I still find it more entertaining to watch than, for example, Formula E purely because of watching the drivers wrestle some great sounding (and looking) cars around some nice tracks. 'Stick shifts' help with this too!
LukeBrown66 said:
Biggest issue is what happens if you get rid of them.
They are largely there for brand awareness and marketing reasons, they get to rub shoulders with new folk and nick engineers and clever people etc.
Plus they can push aspects of their involvement to their own cars allegedly, though I think the only people that really do this are brakes, tyres and a few subsidiary suppliers.
I dont see Mercedes really doing anything in their road cars linked to f1, nor Ferrari or Renault.
Honda clearly thought so too as they ducked off remarkably quickly
Mercedes are playing hard on the F1 tech, for example the recent A45 AMG has a 2 litre, 400bhp engine with a split turbo, as pioneered on the F1 programme. The next generation of C63 and E63 are going to be low-capacity turbo hybrids, replacing iconic large-capacity engines in the process. They are largely there for brand awareness and marketing reasons, they get to rub shoulders with new folk and nick engineers and clever people etc.
Plus they can push aspects of their involvement to their own cars allegedly, though I think the only people that really do this are brakes, tyres and a few subsidiary suppliers.
I dont see Mercedes really doing anything in their road cars linked to f1, nor Ferrari or Renault.
Honda clearly thought so too as they ducked off remarkably quickly
Honda made the “New NSX” a hybrid, but screwed up by doing it in the US rather than Japan - and pricing it against a McLaren rather than a 911.
Edited by Sandpit Steve on Sunday 7th March 19:11
Oilchange said:
We have rather a lot of arable land sitting idle, the US really does have a lot!
Can't we make green, sustainable alcohol type fuels from fermented high calory crops?
A lot cleaner than crude oil fuels and we'd not rely on batteries dug out of the ground polluting the land...
It would remove our reliance on foreign oil exporters and might even stop us going to war on the odd occasion...
And yet there are people in the world starving and/or paying extremely high prices for food. Using land that could grow food to grow fuel isn't likely to do the image of F1 much good either.Can't we make green, sustainable alcohol type fuels from fermented high calory crops?
A lot cleaner than crude oil fuels and we'd not rely on batteries dug out of the ground polluting the land...
It would remove our reliance on foreign oil exporters and might even stop us going to war on the odd occasion...
Derek Smith said:
WantSagaris said:
thiscocks said:
The green agenda is such a futile concept for motorsports to be following. No one watches motorsports because they want to see a load of eco warrior ste trundling around a track with endless rules to try and make a dull concept interesting. It should be the complete antitheses of what the common man has to consider when buying a new car.
The green agenda is needed to attract investment. Car manufacturers don't want to invest in dated technology, one reason Honda pulled out.te trundling around a track with endless rules to try and make a dull concept interesting. It should be the complete antitheses of what the common man has to consider when buying a new car. When they got rid of grid girls there was the hype of anti-exploitation (ie F1's exploitation of young women) and doing what was best for them. The irony was overwhelming. They used them for years, and when it got politically difficult, they dumped them. I wonder how many they asked if they wanted to be sacked? If their intent was as they suggest, then it was paternalism at its worst. But they could not continue with them in the form they were being used.
With the green agenda that they have recently become so committed to, they were criticised in the press for the carbon footprint of each race, so they made changes that did not address the problem, but gave them a banner to hold up if they were accused of crimes against the environment. It was their only defence.
F1 doesn’t care about the BLM movement. However, to ban the kneeling would have given them an image problem, so it was allowed.
The answer is normally image when it comes to the difficult F1 questions.
It was the same with the safety improvements after the Senna and Ratzenberger deaths. The changes implemented by the bloke in charge, and the cause of much self-praise by him, had been proposed some time before, but why change? Oh, yes, Image, that’s why although, in this case there was the threat of legal challenges, particularly in Italy, that concentrated the minds.
F1 has been rightly criticised in the past for existing in a bubble devoid of apparent respect for what's going on in the 'real world'. The 'real-world' changes but at a slower pace to a degree that isn't apparent except when looking back. The grid-girl thing had its place but looking through the lens of today there's few who'd think it right. F1 binning them may well have been image driven but for the right reasons.
Following the green agenda is the result of the sport's current marriage to manufacturers whose various strategies and ambitions are linked to this. Don't forget that we are looking at the cessation of ICE powered road cars over the short term and this is where manufacturers are looking to evolve to. F1 may take a different path in the future but at the moment it has to follow suit.
The safety thing too.... Even if the motivation to improve safety was image led (which I don't think it was), is that a bad thing? It would have been if the safety improvements were meaningless but lest we forget that they saved the life of Grosjean and countless others who I'm sure couldn't give a monkey's as to what prompted the move to improve the safety of F1.
Oilchange said:
Binning grid girls was daft, putting a load of girls out of work to satisfy some right on muppets, really? It would be the same if the US fired all their cheerleaders but that isn’t going to happen any time soon, thankfully.
I assume you’re being fecesious, but I somehow doubt that being a grid girl was their first line of work. As a red blooded male, I did enjoy them, but I always thought it was weird/funny that their only job was to stand there and look good. This was almost awkward when they lined them up to clap the drivers on the way to the podium. It does look pretty sexist, as if to say-Things men can do:
Drive
Fix cars
Design cars
Lead
....
Things women can do:
Look pretty.
However, they could have also solved this image by going 50/50 pit girls and guys.
Oilchange said:
Binning grid girls was daft, putting a load of girls out of work to satisfy some right on muppets, really? It would be the same if the US fired all their cheerleaders but that isn’t going to happen any time soon, thankfully.
Not at all- they just looked crass and embarrassing . And before we get too dewy eyed , let's not imagine they are a long standing tradition going back to the dawn of F1 . jpf said:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but fans of F1 want to see the best racing in the world. The engine doesn't dictate fan interest in a race. The racing dictates the fan interest.
My biggest disagreement, I don't want to watch the best racing in the world. I want it to be good but I have no interest in an artificial spec series that generates close racing for the sake of it.I want the best engineering with the best driver to win, something we've had plenty of since the beginning of the Turbo/Hybrid era, with fantastic duels between teams, drivers and teammates. I could argue that since 2014 we haven't had a single dull championship.
Of course every chance that someone could surpass Lewis's win record because they keep increasing the amount of races in season?
They are looking at 25 races in a season or 2 in a weekend , a sprint and a long race.
The possibility of a driver winning 20 races in a season is quite high?
They are looking at 25 races in a season or 2 in a weekend , a sprint and a long race.
The possibility of a driver winning 20 races in a season is quite high?
Nampahc Niloc said:
I assume you’re being fecesious, but I somehow doubt that being a grid girl was their first line of work. As a red blooded male, I did enjoy them, but I always thought it was weird/funny that their only job was to stand there and look good. This was almost awkward when they lined them up to clap the drivers on the way to the podium. It does look pretty sexist, as if to say-
Things men can do:
Drive
Fix cars
Design cars
Lead
....
Things women can do:
Look pretty.
However, they could have also solved this image by going 50/50 pit girls and guys.
Not facetious at all, ask the girls how they felt getting the boot. Maybe it wasn’t their only income source, who cares?Things men can do:
Drive
Fix cars
Design cars
Lead
....
Things women can do:
Look pretty.
However, they could have also solved this image by going 50/50 pit girls and guys.
Doubt many would say they would quit immediately knowing they were regarded as sexist, ‘ Oh my god, really? I must resign immediately’...part of the appeal surely.
Ask the US pom pom dancers at the Football games if they are regarded with a cringe? It’s part of the spectacle.
I’d rather have grid girls dishing out the prizes than a bunch of suited hangers on that no-one knows.
Sign of the times I suppose but everything is done nowadays to make sure no-one is ‘offended’. Get them back I say.
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