Official 2021 Grand Prix Support races thread (F2, F3 & W)

[TheDeuce]

F20CN16 said:

Should green flag this. It’s very wet but it’s not Canada 2011.

I hope so - the weather is about the same all day so it'll screw up everything if they're overly cautious. Which they may be given they've already sent drivers to hospital this weekend..

[anonymous-user]

Sandpit Steve said:

Oh of course it needs to come from race control. What I was trying to say was, given the history of this sequence of corners, race control need to have a permanent view of it on their screens. It was always going to be a red flag during the practice session, as soon as the first car went off. With the light boxes and radios, it would only take a second or two, to promulgate the message to all the marshal posts.

We all know that drivers have a habit of lifting off the minimum possible, in response to yellow flags. Whether we should police that better is a different question.

Waved yellows is more than enough warning when you have a bunch of drivers all knowing it's raining and the track is going to get wet in patches, entering a dangerous place like au rouge on slicks.

If it isn't enough, take their race licence off them. Responsibility is with the drivers not backing off enough or not having the mental capacity to process flag signals, or in some cases being so tunnel visioned they dont see them.

I would be asking each driver what they saw and why they didn't slow down enough, the first to crash was just a st happens when pushing on slicks and you hit water, the others need to be analysed individually as to where they were and what flags were out in their line of sight and if they had time to react but didn't, or were already too committed when the flags were put out and it was a st happens moment.

[SpudLink]

Brilliant F3 race. Worth waiting for.
Scary overtake from Collet.

[anonymous-user]

Collett’s antics show the risks that drivers will take at Raidillon even though they know the dangers. He was driving into a tyre wall before rejoining.

[TheDeuce]

Overall very impressed at the ability and care of the F3 drivers this weekend in the wet.

And the closing laps of that race were excellent

[Hungrymc]

jsf said:

Sandpit Steve said:

Oh of course it needs to come from race control. What I was trying to say was, given the history of this sequence of corners, race control need to have a permanent view of it on their screens. It was always going to be a red flag during the practice session, as soon as the first car went off. With the light boxes and radios, it would only take a second or two, to promulgate the message to all the marshal posts.

We all know that drivers have a habit of lifting off the minimum possible, in response to yellow flags. Whether we should police that better is a different question.

Waved yellows is more than enough warning when you have a bunch of drivers all knowing it's raining and the track is going to get wet in patches, entering a dangerous place like au rouge on slicks.

If it isn't enough, take their race licence off them. Responsibility is with the drivers not backing off enough or not having the mental capacity to process flag signals, or in some cases being so tunnel visioned they dont see them.

I would be asking each driver what they saw and why they didn't slow down enough, the first to crash was just a st happens when pushing on slicks and you hit water, the others need to be analysed individually as to where they were and what flags were out in their line of sight and if they had time to react but didn't, or were already too committed when the flags were put out and it was a st happens moment.

I was really shocked by the drivers (I think there were 2) who were off the track, in waved yellows, and kept their foot in it far too long while barreling into the incident. They turned a nasty accident into a horrific one.

I think I saw 4 cars spin in quite quick succession, a 5th car try to pass them, off the track, at pretty much full speed (locks brakes maybe 20m from impact), and a 6th some time later do the same (even less excuse). Really poor from those two and I’d expect pretty serious sanctions. Of course before that let’s hope everyone is OK.

[Roofless Toothless]

jsf said:

Sandpit Steve said:

Oh of course it needs to come from race control. What I was trying to say was, given the history of this sequence of corners, race control need to have a permanent view of it on their screens. It was always going to be a red flag during the practice session, as soon as the first car went off. With the light boxes and radios, it would only take a second or two, to promulgate the message to all the marshal posts.

We all know that drivers have a habit of lifting off the minimum possible, in response to yellow flags. Whether we should police that better is a different question.

Waved yellows is more than enough warning when you have a bunch of drivers all knowing it's raining and the track is going to get wet in patches, entering a dangerous place like au rouge on slicks.

If it isn't enough, take their race licence off them. Responsibility is with the drivers not backing off enough or not having the mental capacity to process flag signals, or in some cases being so tunnel visioned they dont see them.

I would be asking each driver what they saw and why they didn't slow down enough, the first to crash was just a st happens when pushing on slicks and you hit water, the others need to be analysed individually as to where they were and what flags were out in their line of sight and if they had time to react but didn't, or were already too committed when the flags were put out and it was a st happens moment.

Be prepared to stop is, or always was, part of the message of a waved yellow.

A red flag is more of a procedural instruction if anything - return to pits, etc.

There is some discussion of sight lines at Eu Rouge on the F1 thread. JSF may well be right that a review of the positioning of flag points is in order, also communications locally.

When I flagged posts had a telephone connection to race control only. Sometimes the post observer would be issued with a radio, but this was rare. The guys flagging might not even be too close to the location of the phone. It was explained to me that they really didn't want too many people to have radios, or the the airways would be choked up with enthusiastic but unnecessary messages. This was some time ago, mind - most things are getting to be some time ago now for me! - and I don't know how things work with the illuminated signals. But it is surprising how quick a red flag gets round the circuit by line of sight transmission between posts. I can remember once anticipating a red flag after an incident, reaching down for it and getting ready to wave, with the observer's hand on my shoulder, saying 'wait for it, wait for it ....'

[MitchT]

There's an interesting piece of footage here showing the timescale for the red to appear. I'm surprised the light at Radillon didn't go yellow as soon as the first car went sideways. While race control may be the only one with authority to throw a red, surely the marshals adjacent to a light should be able to switch it to yellow?

https://youtu.be/ALZfkvElqkI

[kambites]

MitchT said:

There's an interesting piece of footage here showing the timescale for the red to appear. I'm surprised the light at Radillon didn't go yellow as soon as the first car went sideways. While race control may be the only one with authority to throw a red, surely the marshals adjacent to a light should be able to switch it to yellow?

https://youtu.be/ALZfkvElqkI

Yes the accident was practically over before the light leading up to it went yellow. I wonder if they couldn't automate the yellow flags somehow in that situation. They have a tracker which knows where the cars are, how hard would it be to automatically trigger a yellow flag if a car stops in a place known to be a blind-spot?

[Sandpit Steve]

MitchT said:

There's an interesting piece of footage here showing the timescale for the red to appear. I'm surprised the light at Radillon didn't go yellow as soon as the first car went sideways. While race control may be the only one with authority to throw a red, surely the marshals adjacent to a light should be able to switch it to yellow?

https://youtu.be/ALZfkvElqkI

That’s really good footage. The light starts with the raindrops, and all six cars involved in the accident pass it before it changes - initially to green, then quickly to double yellow. Two more cars pass it under double yellow before it goes red. It takes four seconds for the six cars to come into view info the video frame. The’s no obvious flag marshal in the picture, so the drivers are relying on that one light box for flag signals.

It’s six seconds from the first car hitting the wall to the light showing double yellow, the signals were totally ineffective in slowing the cars down because the yellow was never seen by any of the drivers involved.

As I understand it, the lights are controlled (for yellow, blue, white, yellow/red) locally, by a marshal at each post. The red light is from race control. Marshals also have radio receivers, so that audio instructions can be given from race control. The marshal may of course be surprised or momentarily distracted by the accident itself, but six seconds is an age to get a yellow flag out - especially at a famously unsighted corner.

It’s possible that switching that light to double yellow as soon as the first car went off, might have slowed down at least the last couple of cars involved in the crash.

[thegreenhell]

When the first car hits the wall the sixth car is already turning into the first left part of Eau Rouge at full speed. No flag or light is going to slow a car that's already fully committed to the corner at that point enough to prevent them sliding off on the same thing that caused the first one to go off.

[bockaaarck]

thegreenhell said:

When the first car hits the wall the sixth car is already turning into the first left part of Eau Rouge at full speed. No flag or light is going to slow a car that's already fully committed to the corner at that point enough to prevent them sliding off on the same thing that caused the first one to go off.

I think that’s a fair and valid point, they’re quite close to each other and already committed to the corner.

[MitchT]

On previous occasions I've seen yellow flags start waving as soon as a car appears to have lost control and before it's hit anything or become stranded. If the yellow light had illuminated as quickly as that it might have helped. I can't tell from the clip how quickly the flags at the marshal post at the top of the hill start waving, but maybe if someone was near the entry to Eau Rouge controlling the light that overlooks Radillon and had turned it yellow as soon as Moore started to slide it might have given oncoming cars a chance to lift and brake.

[bockaaarck]

I’ve seen some comment regards the profile of the corner having slightly dropped as a result of the recent flooding and mud slides. They’ve clearly carried out work in the circuit to try and address that. But watching the F1 FP1 Lewis Hamilton did make a comment that the car was really smacking / bumping there through corner, he commented how he could really feel the bang this year. So that also may be a contributing factor here. Slightly concerning for the race / races

Edited by bockaaarck on Saturday 28th August 13:09

[anonymous-user]

MitchT said:

There's an interesting piece of footage here showing the timescale for the red to appear. I'm surprised the light at Radillon didn't go yellow as soon as the first car went sideways. While race control may be the only one with authority to throw a red, surely the marshals adjacent to a light should be able to switch it to yellow?

https://youtu.be/ALZfkvElqkI

Warning light was very late.

I'd like to see the board at the previous post as that should have been on earlier.

[Sandpit Steve]

jsf said:

Warning light was very late.

I'd like to see the board at the previous post as that should have been on earlier.

Presumably the half a second that the light panel we could see was green, was as a reaction to the previous one being turned yellow?

Maybe they need a marshal post on the right hand side half way up the hill, with a clear view of the whole complex and who can activate a number of additional light panels in the run up to and around that corner - but is also far away enough from the action to avoid him being distracted by an accident.

Too many accidents there now, if they can’t fix the signalling they’ll need to fix the corner - and no-one wants to have to do that.

[Teddy Lop]

Is there going to be race or a cruise?

[Sandpit Steve]

F3 again this weekend, at a very narrow and twisty Zandvoort. Two red flags already in practice, this place is almost as bad as a street circuit for punishing mistakes, not a lot of runoff before you hit something solid.

[anonymous-user]

And lots of blind entries. Such a great circuit!

[TheDeuce]

Have they said why there is a delay?