Exceeded track limits.

Exceeded track limits.

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Discussion

Wills2

17,847 posts

139 months

Tuesday 30th March
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Kraken said:
Wills2 said:
No I think you're reading too much into what they said, track limits always apply to an overtake Verstappen having to give the place back had nothing to do with the track limits set for qualifying or that they allowed cars to breach those track limits during the race (whilst not gaining a lasting advantage)

Had Lewis been overtaking cars whilst going off in turn 4 he'd have had the same rule applied to him.

Why have the distinction at all though? That's the farcical thing about the way F1 handles track limits. It's either the track or it's not regardless of whether you're on your own or overtaking. In the UK we race with far stricter track limits than the FIA stipulates and it's policed with series that have a tiny fraction of the money and personnel that F1 does. All I can think is that F1 enjoys stirring the pot as they could solve the issue overnight if the really wanted to.
I don't think it is farcical, the distinction at the weekend was no running off during qualifying and you cannot go off the track to gain a lasting advantage during the race, there are many reasons why you might run off the track during the race therefore there has to be a balance to allow the race to happen adding more and more rigid rules will spoil the spectacle and the arguments won't stop they will get worse...just look at VAR in football.

For me the message to Lewis to stop going off in turn 4 was given because you could argue that he was doing that to gain a lasting advantage as Verstappen bared down on him, so it was unfair to allow him to continue but that has nothing to do with Max being able to leave the track to overtake another car. (which of course you can't do)






Kawasicki

9,007 posts

199 months

Tuesday 30th March
quotequote all
RB Will said:
Kawasicki said:
patmahe said:
Every corner, every lap, every circuit, the white lines define the limit. I don't see why it can't be that simple, the lack of consistency is crazy.
Most successful racers have learned to completely take the piss until they are penalised for it. It goes right back to grass-roots motorsport.
I learned that one in karting. Me as an amateur chasing a pro, just about hanging on to him for a while then someone else crashed bringing out out full yellows. I slowed as instructed and he carried on at near full pace only slowing for the accident site. He pulled about half a lap on me and I never got near him again.
From that day on I have been using his tactics.

I dont agree with doing stuff like this at all but if you dont you get beat by the people who do.
I was criticised by a "pro" for being slow. He was 1.2 seconds a lap faster than me, I couldn't simply believe that was possible. What was interesting about this situation is that we were driving cars with 2 seats. I told him that I didn't believe that was possible and he should demo his lap, with me sat beside him this time. He completely ignored the only chicane on the track, as in don't even bother steering at all going "through" it. All 4 tyres were off the track, first one side, then the other. I said "that is stupid", he replied with "that is normal". I changed my line to completely ignore the chicane and I also got his lap time.

Boring story, I know...

garyhun

30,631 posts

192 months

Tuesday 30th March
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RB Will said:
Just seen a video by another racer showing Hamilton well over white line and rumble strip 29 times in the race apparently adding up to 5.8 seconds gained. Dunno how many times Max did it
29 and a half wink

RB Will

6,931 posts

204 months

Tuesday 30th March
quotequote all
garyhun said:
RB Will said:
Just seen a video by another racer showing Hamilton well over white line and rumble strip 29 times in the race apparently adding up to 5.8 seconds gained. Dunno how many times Max did it
29 and a half wink
I was under the assumption it was much less since RBR had to tell Max to do it after observing Hamilton doing for a while unpunished.

Also what counts as part of the overtake in this instance? Max was already past Hamilton and about a car length clear when he got on the power, went sideways and had to recover in the runoff. In my mind the overtake was complete, he was just messy getting back on the power. He wasn't off circuit at all while he went past Hamilton.
If we are arguing that Max overtook off the track surely we have to penalise Hamilton for forcing him off as he was over the white line on corner exit too. If Hamilton didnt shove him off then the the overtake was complete before he went off track so only preserved rather than gained an advantage much like Hamilton using the run off when he locked up earlier.

Adrian W

11,788 posts

192 months

Tuesday 30th March
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its the same rule for everyone on track, those that get caught out moan, always have and always will

Adrian W

11,788 posts

192 months

Tuesday 30th March
quotequote all
RB Will said:
I was under the assumption it was much less since RBR had to tell Max to do it after observing Hamilton doing for a while unpunished.

Also what counts as part of the overtake in this instance? Max was already past Hamilton and about a car length clear when he got on the power, went sideways and had to recover in the runoff. In my mind the overtake was complete, he was just messy getting back on the power. He wasn't off circuit at all while he went past Hamilton.
If we are arguing that Max overtook off the track surely we have to penalise Hamilton for forcing him off as he was over the white line on corner exit too. If Hamilton didnt shove him off then the the overtake was complete before he went off track so only preserved rather than gained an advantage much like Hamilton using the run off when he locked up earlier.
how did he get past Hamilton?

RB Will

6,931 posts

204 months

Tuesday 30th March
quotequote all
Adrian W said:
how did he get past Hamilton?
Mostly on the previous straight



And completed the move on the track round the outside





If we are saying he was off for the overtake then really what choice did he have given Hamilton was 95% off the track on the exit too



You can see the black lines from where he lit the rear up and slid on acceleration after the corner and pass, that is why he went off

BarbaricAvatar

1,410 posts

112 months

Tuesday 30th March
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Put sausage kerbs out there and the drivers won't leave the track. Have nothing there to penalise them and they'll take every advantage they think they can get away with.

Adrian W

11,788 posts

192 months

Tuesday 30th March
quotequote all
RB Will said:
Adrian W said:


You can see the black lines from where he lit the rear up and slid on acceleration after the corner and pass, that is why he went off
My point was he couldn't have finished the move without going off the track, so it doesn't matter at that point he left the track, if you argue that the overtake was complete on the straight then he entered the corner to fast and was never going to make it

angrymoby

1,400 posts

142 months

Tuesday 30th March
quotequote all
RB Will said:
Mostly on the previous straight



And completed the move on the track round the outside





If we are saying he was off for the overtake then really what choice did he have given Hamilton was 95% off the track on the exit too



You can see the black lines from where he lit the rear up and slid on acceleration after the corner and pass, that is why he went off
all that copy & paste ... completely undone by the man himself "i was outside of the track limit when i passed Lewis"

RB Will

6,931 posts

204 months

Tuesday 30th March
quotequote all
I'm saying he completed the move on the straight and early to mid corner and that putting the power on following the move he fouled up.

If you look at the 3rd pic above he is turning tighter than Hamilton at that point and at an angle tracing or tighter than the track limits, suggesting he was not planning on running wide and had not carried too much speed. Happy to be shown I'm wrong with better camera angles or telemetry, but that is how I see it. I know I'm in a minority.



angrymoby

1,400 posts

142 months

Tuesday 30th March
quotequote all
RB Will said:
I'm saying he completed the move on the straight and early to mid corner and that putting the power on following the move he fouled up.

If you look at the 3rd pic above he is turning tighter than Hamilton at that point and at an angle tracing or tighter than the track limits, suggesting he was not planning on running wide and had not carried too much speed. Happy to be shown I'm wrong with better camera angles or telemetry, but that is how I see it. I know I'm in a minority.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4WGoYtYJXFw

that's all you need to watch (repeatedly) ...Max hadn't got the move fully done at the apex & that's all that matters, as he points out himself

Tyre Smoke

17,110 posts

225 months

Tuesday 30th March
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The track limit is the white line. On every track everywhere. If you can go around the lap faster by ignoring this and going off track, then you are gaining an advantage. Hamilton did it 29 times apparently. He gained an advantage by doing that in faster lap times. Max did it to complete the overtake and gained an obvious advantage. The body in the wrong here are the race directors. Track limits are track limits. There is no grey area, pardon the pun. The only reason you would ever exceed track limits is because you are either about to crash, nearly crash or gain a distinct advantage. Obviously the first two options are to the detriment of your pace, the last one isn't.

Yet again, F1 trying to create a situation for a great show and not a great race. Just enforce the track limits or don't.

Teddy Lop

4,692 posts

31 months

Tuesday 30th March
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Sandpit Steve said:
The best way to do it is with physical barriers. If going wide left you running over a sausage kerb, a slab of wet astroturf, a gravel trap, or three lines of Armco, no-one would ever be out there.

Yes, I know, motorbikes don’t like the physical barriers, so the FIA needs to find a standard for temporary physical means of enforcement.

Alternatively, use electronic monitoring with no exceptions - B&W flag for the first offence, then penalties for not lifting though the timing sector if they run wide.

If they want to be really computer-gamey, than an ERS derate for a few seconds, triggered by a loop in the track is technically possible.
Stop. That's all you need, a ~1 meter strip ~1.5 meters from the track, I've been saying a 1" deep artificial puddle-strip but water logged astro turf would have the same effect

Car goes wide, hits water which is just enough to cool tyres a bit thus restrict performance briefly - track limits policed organically, a pass comes with a risk, but not too much. the track is also still suitable for the motorbike boys.


angrymoby

1,400 posts

142 months

Tuesday 30th March
quotequote all
Tyre Smoke said:
The body in the wrong here are the race directors
This.

If Masi didn't want drivers potentially gaining an advantage at that corner, he could have employed (as he does at many other tracks & corners) the 3 strikes & a penalty rule ...or they have to stay off track & rejoin after a certain point

So another unimpressive bit of race control (& they're starting to rack up) & the cynic in me thinks Masi has his eye on creating drama a bit too much (warning Hamilton allowed Max to catch up even quicker (also note that once told, it was Verstappen then taking more liberties with the exit at T4 rather than Hamilton)) & that instructing Max to cede the place back rather than a 5s penalty at the end, allowed Max the chance to pass again



Kraken

1,645 posts

164 months

Wednesday 31st March
quotequote all
Wills2 said:
I don't think it is farcical, the distinction at the weekend was no running off during qualifying and you cannot go off the track to gain a lasting advantage during the race, there are many reasons why you might run off the track during the race therefore there has to be a balance to allow the race to happen adding more and more rigid rules will spoil the spectacle and the arguments won't stop they will get worse...just look at VAR in football.

For me the message to Lewis to stop going off in turn 4 was given because you could argue that he was doing that to gain a lasting advantage as Verstappen bared down on him, so it was unfair to allow him to continue but that has nothing to do with Max being able to leave the track to overtake another car. (which of course you can't do)

Of course it's farcical. There are only two reasons a car would continually go off track. The first is that the driver can do a quicker lap time that way and the second is that the driver is not good enough to keep the car on track. Neither is a valid reason for straying outside of the track boundaries. There is zero need to change the track limits between sessions and certainly no need at all to do it during a session.

As I've said here in the UK we race to far stricter track limits (all wheels on track rather than two off) and that is policed by series with tiny numbers of personnel and budget compared to F1. There is absolutely, 100%, no reason at all why F1 couldn't police track limits properly. It's amazing how quickly drivers manage to stay within the track limits when they realise they will start getting penalties for it.

angrymoby

1,400 posts

142 months

Wednesday 31st March
quotequote all
Kraken said:
Of course it's farcical. There are only two reasons a car would continually go off track. The first is that the driver can do a quicker lap time that way and the second is that the driver is not good enough to keep the car on track. Neither is a valid reason for straying outside of the track boundaries. There is zero need to change the track limits between sessions and certainly no need at all to do it during a session.

As I've said here in the UK we race to far stricter track limits (all wheels on track rather than two off) and that is policed by series with tiny numbers of personnel and budget compared to F1. There is absolutely, 100%, no reason at all why F1 couldn't police track limits properly. It's amazing how quickly drivers manage to stay within the track limits when they realise they will start getting penalties for it.
T4 was policed, by 2 spotters according to Masi ...so either the spotters were Stevie Wonder & David Blunkett or they weren't being listened to, as Masi only intervened when Horner bought it to his attention

ELUSIVEJIM

8,084 posts

115 months

Saturday 3rd April
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Stick a wet drag strip at the edge of the track. That sorted them out at the Nurburgring laugh


Drawweight

Original Poster:

1,438 posts

80 months

Saturday 3rd April
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I wonder what the reasoning is for NOT enforcing a blanket ban on exceeding track limits?

I can get they don’t want to affect the results by awarding penalties but penalties are awarded for pit infringements, yellow flag infringements etc with no leeway. You are proved to have been speeding under a yellow flag..bang..a penalty.

What is so sacred about track limits that they are wary of saying ‘The track is the white line. 4 wheels (or even 2) off the track without some external input i.e you were pushed off and you get penalised.

Are they afraid incidents will happen that can be appealed? Is it simply going to be too difficult to enforce?

TheDeuce

8,912 posts

30 months

Saturday 3rd April
quotequote all
Drawweight said:
I wonder what the reasoning is for NOT enforcing a blanket ban on exceeding track limits?

I can get they don’t want to affect the results by awarding penalties but penalties are awarded for pit infringements, yellow flag infringements etc with no leeway. You are proved to have been speeding under a yellow flag..bang..a penalty.

What is so sacred about track limits that they are wary of saying ‘The track is the white line. 4 wheels (or even 2) off the track without some external input i.e you were pushed off and you get penalised.

Are they afraid incidents will happen that can be appealed? Is it simply going to be too difficult to enforce?
Others tend not to agree... But I really think it's because enforcing it strictly would deter several attempts at passing, because I'm going for a pass there is often a danger of running deep one way or another and exceeding track limits.

Under the current system, that danger is worth the risk as all that happens is you have to give the place back - and of course if you don't run deep then you keep the place, if you do run deep but fail to pass anyway nothing happens, so it's worth going for the pass pretty much every opportunity where it's just about looking realistic, which is good spectacle.

If however limits were enforced in a zero tolerance manner, there would have to be some form of instant and blanket penalty handed out per infringement, or as often mentioned a gravel trap etc which effectively is a penalty. The penalty would have to be punishing enough to cost the driver more than they gain as a result of getting s cheeky overtake done, otherwise they'd all overtake, accept the penalty and win by cheating... So you'd end up with a situation where no one would want to make any pass attempt unless they were pretty confident they'd be past long before they got near the end of the straight.

Would max have gone for that pass, that lap, if he'd known failing to pass and running wide would have handed him and instant 5 second penalty, or put him in the gravel? I think he'd have waited to get closer and hope for a safer pass - but his tyres were failing by that point anyway so a 'safe' pass might not have been possible for that reason, and if attempting a pass would potentially earn him a penalty that could drop him a place or take him out of the race, he'd also have his engineer in his ear telling him to hold P2 and nurse his tyres.

So I think that's why they're generally tolerant of exceeding the limits during the race, because not being so tolerant would in effect make passing far more difficult and infrequent. That doesn't apply in quali so they do blanket enforce by simply deleting any lap where limits are exceeded.