Official 2021 Emilia Romagna Grand Prix **SPOILERS**
Discussion
I haven’t read every post, so I don’t know if it’s been mentioned but this has been in my head since the GR/VB incident.
To me, personally I thought VB did move to make it uncomfortable for GR and it back fired, my dad thought the same when I spoke to him.
And with regards to his words about VB afterwards, racers have the almost arrogant belief that they are never wrong, they need this mentality to succeed.
Also it’s not like he chased VB down and pushed his off the weighing scales like another driver did not long back. Schumacher chased Coulthard (I think) down the pits when he was fuming with him?
To me, personally I thought VB did move to make it uncomfortable for GR and it back fired, my dad thought the same when I spoke to him.
And with regards to his words about VB afterwards, racers have the almost arrogant belief that they are never wrong, they need this mentality to succeed.
Also it’s not like he chased VB down and pushed his off the weighing scales like another driver did not long back. Schumacher chased Coulthard (I think) down the pits when he was fuming with him?
RB Will said:
Derek Smith said:
paulguitar said:
RB Will said:
ch37 said:
When was the last time Hamilton made an 'unforced error?!
Literally every race this season. Also, leading the WDC with a win and a second, in an inferior car. It's a pretty damn good start to the season.
Race 1 had an unforced off (however you want to view it) and flustered enough to tell his engineer to hush, lost the lead but got given it back, and wasn't Max driving a "damaged" car or something?
Race 2 off track twice, damaged his car twice, goes lap down, by sheer luck 2 other drivers collide and get him a fixed car and a lap back so all he has to do is trundle past some mid field cars to take second back.
How inferior is the car? It was on pole this week?
What would you consider a forced error?
Edited by cjm on Monday 19th April 13:33
HardtopManual said:
Petrus1983 said:
the consequences of going onto the grass rather than backing off should have been clear
The consequences of braking hard enough to lose the 30km/h speed differential, with the DRS open, in a stiff, mid-engined car, would have been the same.Seemed his instinct was the VB was going to move farther and over reacted slightly.
Ouch.
Bet next time he is in that position, he would just try to hold it to the edge and let the other driver 'cause' the accident.
End of the day, VB didn't need to do that slight move, but hey, saved LH's race
HardtopManual said:
Petrus1983 said:
the consequences of going onto the grass rather than backing off should have been clear
The consequences of braking hard enough to lose the 30km/h speed differential, with the DRS open, in a stiff, mid-engined car, would have been the same.cjm said:
RB Will said:
Derek Smith said:
paulguitar said:
RB Will said:
ch37 said:
When was the last time Hamilton made an 'unforced error?!
Literally every race this season. Also, leading the WDC with a win and a second, in an inferior car. It's a pretty damn good start to the season.
Race 1 had an unforced off (however you want to view it) and flustered enough to tell his engineer to hush, lost the lead but got given it back, and wasn't Max driving a "damaged" car or something?
Race 2 off track twice, damaged his car twice, goes lap down, by sheer luck 2 other drivers collide and get him a fixed car and a lap back so all he has to do is trundle past some mid field cars to take second back.
How inferior is the car? It was on pole this week?
What would you consider a forced error?
Edited by cjm on Monday 19th April 13:33
And all we hear about on this thread is Lewis' luck.
Mr_Thyroid said:
You're talking like it was the final lap - it was less than half distance.
Bottas had come out of the pits one lap earlier and will have expected to easily pull away and start making up positions once he got his tyres working properly. Russell's chances of maintaining 9th were very slim and 10th would have been his best finish for Williams so really, he had more to lose by going for it.
Of course we've all seen Bottas' inert performances in traffic so we (and probably Russell) have our doubts but he will have backed himself.
On that basis if Bottas was aware of GR making a pass then he should have let him go knowing that when he his tyres were up to temperature he would have the better car to overtake later.Bottas had come out of the pits one lap earlier and will have expected to easily pull away and start making up positions once he got his tyres working properly. Russell's chances of maintaining 9th were very slim and 10th would have been his best finish for Williams so really, he had more to lose by going for it.
Of course we've all seen Bottas' inert performances in traffic so we (and probably Russell) have our doubts but he will have backed himself.
jm doc said:
cjm said:
RB Will said:
Derek Smith said:
paulguitar said:
RB Will said:
ch37 said:
When was the last time Hamilton made an 'unforced error?!
Literally every race this season. Also, leading the WDC with a win and a second, in an inferior car. It's a pretty damn good start to the season.
Race 1 had an unforced off (however you want to view it) and flustered enough to tell his engineer to hush, lost the lead but got given it back, and wasn't Max driving a "damaged" car or something?
Race 2 off track twice, damaged his car twice, goes lap down, by sheer luck 2 other drivers collide and get him a fixed car and a lap back so all he has to do is trundle past some mid field cars to take second back.
How inferior is the car? It was on pole this week?
What would you consider a forced error?
Edited by cjm on Monday 19th April 13:33
And all we hear about on this thread is Lewis' luck.
There are plenty of times Hamilton has used the push the other guy off the track technique, sometimes with physical force and gotten away with it. Isnt it only the once with Albon where he was penalised? So cant complain now someone has done it back to him.
I complained when he was doing it to Rosberg all the time and was informed by PH it was fair racing and Rosberg's fault for being there.
Leithen said:
Wolff would have been perfectly happy if Russell had overtaken Bottas without incident. He failed, Wolff is pissed off. Wolff will have also had an immediate view of Bottas's steering telemetry. He clearly thinks that he didn't do anything egregious.
Worse is Russell's response after the event. Adrenaline can explain some of it. But by the time he is in Parc Ferme talking to reporters, he ought to have wound his neck back in. That probably has been more of a black mark with Wolff than the accident itself.
This... Wolff wasn’t saying he shouldn’t challenge the Merc, just unwise to attempt the overtake where he did. Worse is Russell's response after the event. Adrenaline can explain some of it. But by the time he is in Parc Ferme talking to reporters, he ought to have wound his neck back in. That probably has been more of a black mark with Wolff than the accident itself.
As he pulled out to overtake the track turns slightly to the left, his view would have been of a narrowing track relative to Bottas’s car.
Toto pointed out before the season started that it was one race in the Merc, George needed to show, race craft, decision making etc..
he crashed all on his lonesome at last years race. He got it wrong yesterday. What if he was coming through the field in a Merc yesterday and tried to pull the same move in that spot. He’s on a learning curve and he had a big lesson.
vaud said:
Sandpit Steve said:
I’m sure Toto will be talking to Bottas, to try and understand why he was off the pace this weekend - in private.
In public he’ll be backing his driver to the hilt, as would any team manager in that situation.
George is also "his driver" - he is just on loan to Williams.In public he’ll be backing his driver to the hilt, as would any team manager in that situation.
I think George has massive talent and could be up there fighting with Charles and Lando in the right machinery. but I do honestly worry that hooking himself up to Merc for his F1 career is putting all his eggs in one basket. Even if he does get the drive next year, what's to say the Merc dominance will continue with the new regs.
Gtom said:
I haven’t read every post, so I don’t know if it’s been mentioned but this has been in my head since the GR/VB incident.
Said by a driver well known for causing crashes. In fact that quote was his response when he was asked why he has so many collisions.The flipside is another very famous quote very popular with genuine racing drivers: "To finish first, first you must finish." attributed to a whole bunch of drivers from Fangio to Stewart to Jack Brabham, to Bruce McLaren, to Rick Mears....
If you want to know what watching Senna in modern Formula 1 would be like, try to imagine Max Verstappen with charisma.
Sorry, I hate that quote because it's always used out of context of the question that prompted it
Where does the idea that VB "jinked" come from?
I know the commentators were speculating this. I don't know if they had lost track of where this was on circuit, but the normal line would take VB all the way to the right hand edge, he certainly didn't go that far right. In fact the only jink I think I saw was VB going left when it all started going wrong? I think the stewards have determined that there was no movement from VB as well?
No issue with George making that attempt. It was risky, to commit to a top speed pass, into a naturally reducing gap, going onto the wet part of the track, round the outside of a kink with DRS wide open... Fair play for having a go, but he dropped the car, it happens, particularly in the wet... No need to try and blame anyone else.
I know the commentators were speculating this. I don't know if they had lost track of where this was on circuit, but the normal line would take VB all the way to the right hand edge, he certainly didn't go that far right. In fact the only jink I think I saw was VB going left when it all started going wrong? I think the stewards have determined that there was no movement from VB as well?
No issue with George making that attempt. It was risky, to commit to a top speed pass, into a naturally reducing gap, going onto the wet part of the track, round the outside of a kink with DRS wide open... Fair play for having a go, but he dropped the car, it happens, particularly in the wet... No need to try and blame anyone else.
Hungrymc said:
Where does the idea that VB "jinked" come from?
I know the commentators were speculating this. I don't know if they had lost track of where this was on circuit, but the normal line would take VB all the way to the right hand edge, he certainly didn't go that far right. In fact the only jink I think I saw was VB going left when it all started going wrong? I think the stewards have determined that there was no movement from VB as well?
No issue with George making that attempt. It was risky, to commit to a top speed pass, into a naturally reducing gap, going onto the wet part of the track, round the outside of a kink with DRS wide open... Fair play for having a go, but he dropped the car, it happens, particularly in the wet... No need to try and blame anyone else.
To be fair to George, lots of DRS passes were made on that bit of track and in most cases the driver being overtaken, in cases where the speed dfferential was so great that the pass was inevitable, kept left and didn't squeeze right. I think Valtteri was surprised by George being there, his sudden jink left would suggest to me that he was, and was just taking the racing line not realising he had a car coming past him on the right. I think George was initially expecting Valtteri to keep left and then had to react when Valtteri kept moving right.I know the commentators were speculating this. I don't know if they had lost track of where this was on circuit, but the normal line would take VB all the way to the right hand edge, he certainly didn't go that far right. In fact the only jink I think I saw was VB going left when it all started going wrong? I think the stewards have determined that there was no movement from VB as well?
No issue with George making that attempt. It was risky, to commit to a top speed pass, into a naturally reducing gap, going onto the wet part of the track, round the outside of a kink with DRS wide open... Fair play for having a go, but he dropped the car, it happens, particularly in the wet... No need to try and blame anyone else.
I think George was so angry because he felt Valtteri defended a position which was 99% lost when there were still damp areas on the track.
Edited by VladD on Monday 19th April 14:56
kiseca said:
Gtom said:
I haven’t read every post, so I don’t know if it’s been mentioned but this has been in my head since the GR/VB incident.
Said by a driver well known for causing crashes. In fact that quote was his response when he was asked why he has so many collisions.The flipside is another very famous quote very popular with genuine racing drivers: "To finish first, first you must finish." attributed to a whole bunch of drivers from Fangio to Stewart to Jack Brabham, to Bruce McLaren, to Rick Mears....
If you want to know what watching Senna in modern Formula 1 would be like, try to imagine Max Verstappen with charisma.
Sorry, I hate that quote because it's always used out of context of the question that prompted it
Section 20 onwards
https://argent.fia.com/web/fia-public.nsf/FE4C9612...
The rule was prompted in 2011 by none other than Schumacher (and Hamilton)
entropy said:
Mr_Thyroid said:
You're talking like it was the final lap - it was less than half distance.
Bottas had come out of the pits one lap earlier and will have expected to easily pull away and start making up positions once he got his tyres working properly. Russell's chances of maintaining 9th were very slim and 10th would have been his best finish for Williams so really, he had more to lose by going for it.
Of course we've all seen Bottas' inert performances in traffic so we (and probably Russell) have our doubts but he will have backed himself.
On that basis if Bottas was aware of GR making a pass then he should have let him go knowing that when he his tyres were up to temperature he would have the better car to overtake later.Bottas had come out of the pits one lap earlier and will have expected to easily pull away and start making up positions once he got his tyres working properly. Russell's chances of maintaining 9th were very slim and 10th would have been his best finish for Williams so really, he had more to lose by going for it.
Of course we've all seen Bottas' inert performances in traffic so we (and probably Russell) have our doubts but he will have backed himself.
1. He did leave room
2. To paraphrase Murray "pulling away is one thing, passing is another". Why would he want to make it difficult for himself. His tyres will probably have been up to temp in another lap, but he could easily spend 3,4,5 laps trying to pass Russell.
VladD said:
Hungrymc said:
Where does the idea that VB "jinked" come from?
I know the commentators were speculating this. I don't know if they had lost track of where this was on circuit, but the normal line would take VB all the way to the right hand edge, he certainly didn't go that far right. In fact the only jink I think I saw was VB going left when it all started going wrong? I think the stewards have determined that there was no movement from VB as well?
No issue with George making that attempt. It was risky, to commit to a top speed pass, into a naturally reducing gap, going onto the wet part of the track, round the outside of a kink with DRS wide open... Fair play for having a go, but he dropped the car, it happens, particularly in the wet... No need to try and blame anyone else.
To be fair to George, lots of DRS passes were made on that bit of track and in most cases the driver being overtaken, in cases where the speed dfferential was so great that the pass was inevitable, kept left and didn't squeeze right. I think Valtteri was surprised by George being there, his sudden jink left would suggest to me that he was, and was just taking the racing line not realising he had a car coming past him on the right. I think George was initially expecting Valtteri to keep left and then had to react when Valtteri kept moving right.I know the commentators were speculating this. I don't know if they had lost track of where this was on circuit, but the normal line would take VB all the way to the right hand edge, he certainly didn't go that far right. In fact the only jink I think I saw was VB going left when it all started going wrong? I think the stewards have determined that there was no movement from VB as well?
No issue with George making that attempt. It was risky, to commit to a top speed pass, into a naturally reducing gap, going onto the wet part of the track, round the outside of a kink with DRS wide open... Fair play for having a go, but he dropped the car, it happens, particularly in the wet... No need to try and blame anyone else.
I think George was so angry because he felt Valtteri defended a position which was 99% lost when there were still damp areas on the track.
Edited by VladD on Monday 19th April 14:56
It reminded me a little of Lewis and Button, except Jenson didn’t leave a full car gap and Lewis didn’t drop the car until there was contact.
heebeegeetee said:
I firmly believe that it's unacceptable that Bottas is in that seat. I'm disappointed in Toto, who doesn't normally shrink from a fight, but seems to have taken the easy option rather than go through another Lewis-Nico situation. I'm a major fan of the Merc F1 team but I'd be quite pleased if this costs them the constructors title.
Bottas in that seat is unfair, it's unfair to the sport, to the fans, to the other teams, the other drivers, the Merc employees and personnel, and so on. It was unacceptable that George overtook VB twice in the Merc last year, it's unacceptable that he was much quicker in the Williams yesterday. The whole situation is unacceptable.
Having said that I do think George screwed up both LH & VB yesterday.
As you describe yourself a major fan of Mercedes F1 you will, no doubt , drop a line to Toto and offer your words of wisdom . Put his hat on straight with your take on running a state of the art organisation like his . He’ll be scratching his head today about it all so seize the moment and don’t forget to tell him you find it all unacceptable.Bottas in that seat is unfair, it's unfair to the sport, to the fans, to the other teams, the other drivers, the Merc employees and personnel, and so on. It was unacceptable that George overtook VB twice in the Merc last year, it's unacceptable that he was much quicker in the Williams yesterday. The whole situation is unacceptable.
Having said that I do think George screwed up both LH & VB yesterday.
Hungrymc said:
VladD said:
Hungrymc said:
Where does the idea that VB "jinked" come from?
I know the commentators were speculating this. I don't know if they had lost track of where this was on circuit, but the normal line would take VB all the way to the right hand edge, he certainly didn't go that far right. In fact the only jink I think I saw was VB going left when it all started going wrong? I think the stewards have determined that there was no movement from VB as well?
No issue with George making that attempt. It was risky, to commit to a top speed pass, into a naturally reducing gap, going onto the wet part of the track, round the outside of a kink with DRS wide open... Fair play for having a go, but he dropped the car, it happens, particularly in the wet... No need to try and blame anyone else.
To be fair to George, lots of DRS passes were made on that bit of track and in most cases the driver being overtaken, in cases where the speed dfferential was so great that the pass was inevitable, kept left and didn't squeeze right. I think Valtteri was surprised by George being there, his sudden jink left would suggest to me that he was, and was just taking the racing line not realising he had a car coming past him on the right. I think George was initially expecting Valtteri to keep left and then had to react when Valtteri kept moving right.I know the commentators were speculating this. I don't know if they had lost track of where this was on circuit, but the normal line would take VB all the way to the right hand edge, he certainly didn't go that far right. In fact the only jink I think I saw was VB going left when it all started going wrong? I think the stewards have determined that there was no movement from VB as well?
No issue with George making that attempt. It was risky, to commit to a top speed pass, into a naturally reducing gap, going onto the wet part of the track, round the outside of a kink with DRS wide open... Fair play for having a go, but he dropped the car, it happens, particularly in the wet... No need to try and blame anyone else.
I think George was so angry because he felt Valtteri defended a position which was 99% lost when there were still damp areas on the track.
Edited by VladD on Monday 19th April 14:56
It reminded me a little of Lewis and Button, except Jenson didn’t leave a full car gap and Lewis didn’t drop the car until there was contact.
I still think George will replace Valtteri at Merc next year, unless Lewis moves on, then we could have Valtteri and George.
RB Will said:
I complained when he was doing it to Rosberg all the time and was informed by PH it was fair racing and Rosberg's fault for being there.
& yet here you are, NOT complaining when Verstappen does the exactly the same thing& fwiw there was nothing wrong with Max's move as far i can tell, hard but fair elbows out 'racing' (& not tiddlywinks)
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