Valtteri Bottas at Mercedes

[Evanivitch]

DeejRC said:

GR of course could always add 2 and 2 together, reaching the conclusion of: If I’m not a dick for a season alongside Lewis, I’m probably set for the rest of my career from the season after.

Have to be honest, I don’t really see that as a stretch of his intelligence. Nor does it require Toto laying down any law.

After Emilia Romagna Grand Prix I'd disagree

[Hugo Stiglitz]

Plus if Russell was THAT good why didn't they sign him for 2021?

[Muzzer79]

Hugo Stiglitz said:

Plus if Russell was THAT good why didn't they sign him for 2021?

IINM:

Russell is on a 3 year deal with Williams, expiring in 2021 (Easy to get him out of)

Bottas is on a 2 year deal at Mercedes, expiring in 2021 (Not so easy to get him out of)

Of course, money can solve anything but it seems pointless to pay £7m-odd to buy Bottas out of his contract when he's doing a perfectly OK job, rather than just wait another year and do everything with no extra cost.

[kambites]

Muzzer79 said:

Bottas is on a 2 year deal at Mercedes, expiring in 2021 (Not so easy to get him out of)

I thought Bottas was on a rolling one year contract? Didn't he re-sign for 2021 early in the 2020 season?

[andburg]

Hugo Stiglitz said:

Plus if Russell was THAT good why didn't they sign him for 2021?

When you've got all the ingredients to make the world best cake for the 8th year in a row you don't random decide to switch our a key ingredient without doing testing.

They cant test Lewis and Russell together, next year they need a whole new cake recipe so there is much less to lose

[SpudLink]

andburg said:

When you've got all the ingredients to make the world best cake for the 8th year in a row you don't random decide to switch our a key ingredient without doing testing.

They cant test Lewis and Russell together, next year they need a whole new cake recipe so there is much less to lose

Agreed.

Am I the only one who admires Wolff for supporting his drivers and honouring contracts? F1 has always been a ruthless business, but Red Bull should not be the gold standard of how to treat your 2nd driver.

[Muzzer79]

kambites said:

Muzzer79 said:

Bottas is on a 2 year deal at Mercedes, expiring in 2021 (Not so easy to get him out of)

I thought Bottas was on a rolling one year contract? Didn't he re-sign for 2021 early in the 2020 season?

That may be the case - I can't exactly remember his contract timings.

Still not easy to get him out of that 2021 deal and just put Russell in the car.

[exelero]

Muzzer79 said:

That may be the case - I can't exactly remember his contract timings.

Still not easy to get him out of that 2021 deal and just put Russell in the car.

It would be, but it costs a lot of money

[oyster]

I can’t recall Mark Webber getting as much stick for his performances in 2010-2013?

He was regularly being beaten by Vettel’s title challengers (namely Alonso and Hamilton).

Feels like a lot of the criticism being thrown at Bottas is because the driver waiting in the wings is British.

Is there some (understandable) patriotism being displayed?

[kambites]

I think rather the opposite - many of the people who criticise Bottas seem to be people who don't like Hamilton and the only way they can hope to belittle Hamilton's achievements is by making Bottas out to be utterly hopeless.

[WickerBill]

oyster said:

I can’t recall Mark Webber getting as much stick for his performances in 2010-2013?

He was regularly being beaten by Vettel’s title challengers (namely Alonso and Hamilton).

Feels like a lot of the criticism being thrown at Bottas is because the driver waiting in the wings is British.

Is there some (understandable) patriotism being displayed?

Add Rubens into the mix against Schumacher.....people werent calling for a better teammate to keep schumacher honest...

To be, like Rubens, Bottas is doing the perfect job for Mercedes, just because fans want a faster second driver, doesnt mean mercedes should do it

[HustleRussell]

oyster said:

I can’t recall Mark Webber getting as much stick for his performances in 2010-2013?

He was regularly being beaten by Vettel’s title challengers (namely Alonso and Hamilton).

Feels like a lot of the criticism being thrown at Bottas is because the driver waiting in the wings is British.

Is there some (understandable) patriotism being displayed?

Mark Webber was being treated as a second driver by the team! Vettel was getting first dibs and technical advantages. Red Bull were then as they are now, a #1 and #2 driver team. This eventually led to the famous “not bad for a number 2 driver”. Webber wasn’t getting stick from outside the team because he was clearly getting it from within.

[HustleRussell]

TheDeuce said:

HustleRussell said:

vulture1 said:

He's a smarter man than me but If I were Toto I would put George in that second car next year with the clear expectation you are the 2nd driver. Gives him a "forced year" to learn and make him a bit more careful if he were battleing Lewis. If he is close enough then free reign the next year for king of the team.

This is exactly what I think will happen. Master & apprentice. Strict rules of engagement with George informed in no uncertain terms that if he gets too big for his large boots, Toto will have no hesitation in swapping a Bottas or a Vandoorne or similar driver in.

I can understand the sense of such an approach if it's viewed only from the perspective of driver management. But from a team ethos pov, it would strike at the heart of what team Merc stand for, how they proudly operate, and somewhat awkwardly it would oppose much of Lewis has said he expects and wants from a team mate.

Depends how you read the importance on the teams results of Toto's brand of team work ethos I guess. Personally, I think his approach to keep things blame free, fair, supportive etc is genuine, and is only effective if it runs through the entire team, and both internally and publicly. I don't think any form of driver favoritism to choose or better support a 'No1' is possible without severely undermining all that is good about the team ethos.

I do accept that there are obvious examples of team orders to favour one driver, but that has only ever been when one driver is within reaching distance of a title, which is also a title for the team, and under such circumstances it is reasonable that the other driver, who is also a team member, should be willing and 'happy' (as happy as is possible) to comply. To apply such an order at the start of the season is not reasonable though, that would be off brand and conflict with so much of the quality of image Merc have nurtured in F1.

But they have also learned from Rosberg’s shock retirement at the end of 2016. They need a succession plan for Hamilton. They also have an incredible opportunity to cross-pollinate Hamilton’s skills to their chosen successor, an opportunity they will not want to waste. This is why I feel they won’t just retain Bottas until Hamilton goes and then have all change.

[Muzzer79]

kambites said:

I think rather the opposite - many of the people who criticise Bottas seem to be people who don't like Hamilton and the only way they can hope to belittle Hamilton's achievements is by making Bottas out to be utterly hopeless.

Exactly this.

People with short memories who forget Vettel's domination and Schumacher's domination before that. They also dismiss Bottas as "sleepy", completely forgetting the fact that Bottas is achieving better WDC results than Webber, Barrichello and Irvine before him.

Then there is the mis-guided notion that the Mercedes is a Scalextrix car that just requires one to get in it and press go.

[Muzzer79]

HustleRussell said:

Mark Webber was being treated as a second driver by the team! Vettel was getting first dibs and technical advantages. Red Bull were then as they are now, a #1 and #2 driver team. This eventually led to the famous “not bad for a number 2 driver”. Webber wasn’t getting stick from outside the team because he was clearly getting it from within.

Vettel was clearly the favoured son, but Webber couldn't exploit the blown diffuser like Vettel could - he admitted it himself in his book.

[MustangGT]

Muzzer79 said:

Vettel was clearly the favoured son, but Webber couldn't exploit the blown diffuser like Vettel could - he admitted it himself in his book.

Fully agree, however, take away the blown diffuser and I would expect Webber to beat Vettel more often than not.

[HustleRussell]

Muzzer79 said:

HustleRussell said:

Mark Webber was being treated as a second driver by the team! Vettel was getting first dibs and technical advantages. Red Bull were then as they are now, a #1 and #2 driver team. This eventually led to the famous “not bad for a number 2 driver”. Webber wasn’t getting stick from outside the team because he was clearly getting it from within.

Vettel was clearly the favoured son, but Webber couldn't exploit the blown diffuser like Vettel could - he admitted it himself in his book.

I am not talking about the relative performance of the drivers, I am talking about the team’s preferential treatment of Vettel.

Hamilton clearly performs better than Bottas but as far as we are aware(?) there is no preferential treatment for Hamilton.

[Sandpit Steve]

SpudLink said:

Agreed.

Am I the only one who admires Wolff for supporting his drivers and honouring contracts? F1 has always been a ruthless business, but Red Bull should not be the gold standard of how to treat your 2nd driver.

Wolff comes across as a brilliant human being, in a way that’s incredibly unusual at such a high level of a very competitive business. He runs a blameless, positive culture in sharp contrast to most of the other teams.

Bottas’ quote about Mercedes not being the sort of team that replaces a driver half way through the season, was exactly what a lot of us were thinking.

[Muzzer79]

HustleRussell said:

Muzzer79 said:

HustleRussell said:

Mark Webber was being treated as a second driver by the team! Vettel was getting first dibs and technical advantages. Red Bull were then as they are now, a #1 and #2 driver team. This eventually led to the famous “not bad for a number 2 driver”. Webber wasn’t getting stick from outside the team because he was clearly getting it from within.

Vettel was clearly the favoured son, but Webber couldn't exploit the blown diffuser like Vettel could - he admitted it himself in his book.

I am not talking about the relative performance of the drivers, I am talking about the team’s preferential treatment of Vettel.

Hamilton clearly performs better than Bottas but as far as we are aware(?) there is no preferential treatment for Hamilton.

I am by no means Vettel's biggest fan and, as I mentioned, he was clearly the favoured son.

However, I wouldn't go as far as #1 / #2 driver. This wasn't a Schumacher/Barrichello set up.

Vettel often got preferred strategy but then he was more-often-than-not out in front so earned that privilege.

There were incidents that raised eyebrows - the front wing at Silverstone & Multi-21 obviously - although the former was slightly clumsy management by the team and the latter was the team playing the game correctly by not favouring SV and Vettel just being a dick.

In general, I think it's fair to say that Mark was never actually prevented from beating Vettel in a race. He just wasn't fast enough to do so on a regular basis.

[Byker28i]

Bottas running well in P1 again, he just needs to nail the race performance again.