Valtteri Bottas at Mercedes
Discussion
Surprised that nothing has been said on this guys performance this weekend. It was a microcosm of Bottas' career really wasn't it? Fantastic pole on Saturday, it really took everyone by surprise how much pace the Mercedes had in qualy mode. And a great gift of Fangio's helmet as well. That'll definitely go front row in the trophy cabinet.
And then an absolutely terrible race, right from the start. He was so passive against Max coming round the outside of the first corner, I just cannot believe any racer worth his salt wouldn't know to position himself half a cars width further to the right to keep Max from coming past on the racing line. Channelling Max to come inside, between him and Lewis while taking the correct line through the corner would have kept him the lead, even with his frankly lame display on the brakes into the first corner. Max absolutely deserved that lead. That then got Bottas involved in the first corner melee and he weakly spent the rest of the race trailing Ricciardo and never really looking like he was going to take him. The guy is fast, but he just can't race. Looking at the tables for this year shows what a liability Bottas has been for Mercedes. Red Bull now look on course for the constructors and the gap between Perez in fourth and Bottas in third is shrinking into nothing. It's really starting to look like Mercedes have thrown this year away, and a large portion of that blame has to fall on Valtteri's racecraft.
And then an absolutely terrible race, right from the start. He was so passive against Max coming round the outside of the first corner, I just cannot believe any racer worth his salt wouldn't know to position himself half a cars width further to the right to keep Max from coming past on the racing line. Channelling Max to come inside, between him and Lewis while taking the correct line through the corner would have kept him the lead, even with his frankly lame display on the brakes into the first corner. Max absolutely deserved that lead. That then got Bottas involved in the first corner melee and he weakly spent the rest of the race trailing Ricciardo and never really looking like he was going to take him. The guy is fast, but he just can't race. Looking at the tables for this year shows what a liability Bottas has been for Mercedes. Red Bull now look on course for the constructors and the gap between Perez in fourth and Bottas in third is shrinking into nothing. It's really starting to look like Mercedes have thrown this year away, and a large portion of that blame has to fall on Valtteri's racecraft.
Mercedes can shoulder some of the blame also, as they aren't developing this years car to the same extent that Red Bull are, they are pretty much throwing the kitchen sink at this years car to get MV the win.
But Bottas... its almost like RB are slipping a brown envelope to stay out of their way.....
But Bottas... its almost like RB are slipping a brown envelope to stay out of their way.....
Edited by DrDeAtH on Tuesday 9th November 11:20
Jake899 said:
Surprised that nothing has been said on this guys performance this weekend. It was a microcosm of Bottas' career really wasn't it? Fantastic pole on Saturday, it really took everyone by surprise how much pace the Mercedes had in qualy mode. And a great gift of Fangio's helmet as well. That'll definitely go front row in the trophy cabinet.
And then an absolutely terrible race, right from the start. He was so passive against Max coming round the outside of the first corner, I just cannot believe any racer worth his salt wouldn't know to position himself half a cars width further to the right to keep Max from coming past on the racing line. Channelling Max to come inside, between him and Lewis while taking the correct line through the corner would have kept him the lead, even with his frankly lame display on the brakes into the first corner. Max absolutely deserved that lead. That then got Bottas involved in the first corner melee and he weakly spent the rest of the race trailing Ricciardo and never really looking like he was going to take him. The guy is fast, but he just can't race. Looking at the tables for this year shows what a liability Bottas has been for Mercedes. Red Bull now look on course for the constructors and the gap between Perez in fourth and Bottas in third is shrinking into nothing. It's really starting to look like Mercedes have thrown this year away, and a large portion of that blame has to fall on Valtteri's racecraft.
Bottas is really very quick in qualifying. If Lewis makes even the slightest error in qualy, Bottas is typically there to capitalise on it.And then an absolutely terrible race, right from the start. He was so passive against Max coming round the outside of the first corner, I just cannot believe any racer worth his salt wouldn't know to position himself half a cars width further to the right to keep Max from coming past on the racing line. Channelling Max to come inside, between him and Lewis while taking the correct line through the corner would have kept him the lead, even with his frankly lame display on the brakes into the first corner. Max absolutely deserved that lead. That then got Bottas involved in the first corner melee and he weakly spent the rest of the race trailing Ricciardo and never really looking like he was going to take him. The guy is fast, but he just can't race. Looking at the tables for this year shows what a liability Bottas has been for Mercedes. Red Bull now look on course for the constructors and the gap between Perez in fourth and Bottas in third is shrinking into nothing. It's really starting to look like Mercedes have thrown this year away, and a large portion of that blame has to fall on Valtteri's racecraft.
I watched the start again, and while I agree that he could have done better to block Max, Bottas just doesn't have the racing IQ that a top driver has to consistently perform. Max made the move early - he initially went for the gap between the two Merc's, but then instinctively went to the outside timing it perfectly. Knowing that Bottas gets flustered under pressure and that Lewis would play it safe, Max made a great sweeping move around the two of them at T1.
There's a bit of irony with Bottas being stuck behind DannyRic - I think that Bottas was too indecisive in T1, and the tip-toe around it led to the contact. Racing incident with no penalty (as it should have been). Bottas will do well in midfield battles next year with Alfa, assuming that they provide a good enough car for him next year.
DaveE87 said:
Bottas is really very quick in qualifying. If Lewis makes even the slightest error in qualy, Bottas is typically there to capitalise on it.
I watched the start again, and while I agree that he could have done better to block Max, Bottas just doesn't have the racing IQ that a top driver has to consistently perform. Max made the move early - he initially went for the gap between the two Merc's, but then instinctively went to the outside timing it perfectly. Knowing that Bottas gets flustered under pressure and that Lewis would play it safe, Max made a great sweeping move around the two of them at T1.
There's a bit of irony with Bottas being stuck behind DannyRic - I think that Bottas was too indecisive in T1, and the tip-toe around it led to the contact. Racing incident with no penalty (as it should have been). Bottas will do well in midfield battles next year with Alfa, assuming that they provide a good enough car for him next year.
Forgive me, you said in you second paragraph that Bottas doesn't have the "racing IQ" to consistently perform. Then you said that he'll do well in midfield battles?I watched the start again, and while I agree that he could have done better to block Max, Bottas just doesn't have the racing IQ that a top driver has to consistently perform. Max made the move early - he initially went for the gap between the two Merc's, but then instinctively went to the outside timing it perfectly. Knowing that Bottas gets flustered under pressure and that Lewis would play it safe, Max made a great sweeping move around the two of them at T1.
There's a bit of irony with Bottas being stuck behind DannyRic - I think that Bottas was too indecisive in T1, and the tip-toe around it led to the contact. Racing incident with no penalty (as it should have been). Bottas will do well in midfield battles next year with Alfa, assuming that they provide a good enough car for him next year.
Do you mean his "racing IQ" is on the level with the guys in the midfield, so he'll be okay there versus trying to mix it with generational talents like Verstappen?
Looking at somewhere like Sochi where, in the fastest car on the grid, he got stuck in 14th behind midfield runners I am somewhat more cynical. I can envisage him having a nice Sunday afternoon drive pootling around and finishing where he started. But not really mixing it in any battles.
Bottas just doesn't have the racing IQ that a top driver has - i.e. Max and Lewis
While Bottas has struggled in midfield, I think he doesn't deal well with the pressure of being at Mercedes. He overdrives the car when he's not in clear air. Look at Gasly for comparison - he's put in some amazing performances at Alpha Tauri, yet struggled at RB.
If next year's cars are easier to follow, we'll see less driver errors from the likes of Bottas.
While Bottas has struggled in midfield, I think he doesn't deal well with the pressure of being at Mercedes. He overdrives the car when he's not in clear air. Look at Gasly for comparison - he's put in some amazing performances at Alpha Tauri, yet struggled at RB.
If next year's cars are easier to follow, we'll see less driver errors from the likes of Bottas.
Flooble said:
DaveE87 said:
Bottas is really very quick in qualifying. If Lewis makes even the slightest error in qualy, Bottas is typically there to capitalise on it.
I watched the start again, and while I agree that he could have done better to block Max, Bottas just doesn't have the racing IQ that a top driver has to consistently perform. Max made the move early - he initially went for the gap between the two Merc's, but then instinctively went to the outside timing it perfectly. Knowing that Bottas gets flustered under pressure and that Lewis would play it safe, Max made a great sweeping move around the two of them at T1.
There's a bit of irony with Bottas being stuck behind DannyRic - I think that Bottas was too indecisive in T1, and the tip-toe around it led to the contact. Racing incident with no penalty (as it should have been). Bottas will do well in midfield battles next year with Alfa, assuming that they provide a good enough car for him next year.
Forgive me, you said in you second paragraph that Bottas doesn't have the "racing IQ" to consistently perform. Then you said that he'll do well in midfield battles?I watched the start again, and while I agree that he could have done better to block Max, Bottas just doesn't have the racing IQ that a top driver has to consistently perform. Max made the move early - he initially went for the gap between the two Merc's, but then instinctively went to the outside timing it perfectly. Knowing that Bottas gets flustered under pressure and that Lewis would play it safe, Max made a great sweeping move around the two of them at T1.
There's a bit of irony with Bottas being stuck behind DannyRic - I think that Bottas was too indecisive in T1, and the tip-toe around it led to the contact. Racing incident with no penalty (as it should have been). Bottas will do well in midfield battles next year with Alfa, assuming that they provide a good enough car for him next year.
Do you mean his "racing IQ" is on the level with the guys in the midfield, so he'll be okay there versus trying to mix it with generational talents like Verstappen?
Looking at somewhere like Sochi where, in the fastest car on the grid, he got stuck in 14th behind midfield runners I am somewhat more cynical. I can envisage him having a nice Sunday afternoon drive pootling around and finishing where he started. But not really mixing it in any battles.
He done OK in a Williams prior to going to Merc. Yes they had a faster car back then, but I recall that he had a few podiums prior to going to Merc.
Looking back at his history, he finished 4th, 5th then 8th in the WDC between 2014-16. As I think I've said before in here, he's good but not great.
Looking back at his history, he finished 4th, 5th then 8th in the WDC between 2014-16. As I think I've said before in here, he's good but not great.
Yeah, I like Bottas but I would worry that he will get bullied in midfield battles. It's a fine balance but he just seems too conservative and almost too fair most of the time. He doesn't close the door on others. Yes, others maybe defend too robustly at times but they at least tread near the line of acceptability and only sometimes cross it. Others just look so much more hungry. Bottas never seems to even try to defend and his overtakes when they happen seem to be in very predictable formulaic places. I just cannot see him winning any dicey scraps. But as others have said, maybe his value to AR will be in other areas behind the scenes.
I don't hold Bottas in particularly high regard, always thought that he was basically a journeyman in that car, and Mercedes and Hamilton basically treated him as such.
That being said, given the circumstances, it is difficult to know to a certainty whether his behaviour is a consequence of being set free and perhaps a measure of rebelliousness against Hamilton and Mercedes for diminishing him for so long. He beat Hamilton and Verstappen to pole fair and square, and the mistake that let Verstappen through seems almost too novice like to be genuine. But, it is also faintly possible.
That being said, given the circumstances, it is difficult to know to a certainty whether his behaviour is a consequence of being set free and perhaps a measure of rebelliousness against Hamilton and Mercedes for diminishing him for so long. He beat Hamilton and Verstappen to pole fair and square, and the mistake that let Verstappen through seems almost too novice like to be genuine. But, it is also faintly possible.
Durzel said:
I don't hold Bottas in particularly high regard, always thought that he was basically a journeyman in that car, and Mercedes and Hamilton basically treated him as such.
That being said, given the circumstances, it is difficult to know to a certainty whether his behaviour is a consequence of being set free and perhaps a measure of rebelliousness against Hamilton and Mercedes for diminishing him for so long. He beat Hamilton and Verstappen to pole fair and square, and the mistake that let Verstappen through seems almost too novice like to be genuine. But, it is also faintly possible.
Even if he isn't particularly interested in helping out Ham or Merc, he must surely have his own personal interest in winning which in turns means keeping Max behind. He just didn't seem to do anything. He defended neither Lewis nor MV and ended up in the least favourable place of being in the middle of a sandwich into T1. But he started on pole and got away okay so could have picked whatever line he fancied. MV was absolutely gifted the clean line and would have known that even if he couldn't make it fully stick into T1 he'd be on the inside into T2 where he could have another bite of the cherry. Not that he ended up needing it as the clean line gave him such an enormous braking advantage into T1 that he was long gone by T2. That being said, given the circumstances, it is difficult to know to a certainty whether his behaviour is a consequence of being set free and perhaps a measure of rebelliousness against Hamilton and Mercedes for diminishing him for so long. He beat Hamilton and Verstappen to pole fair and square, and the mistake that let Verstappen through seems almost too novice like to be genuine. But, it is also faintly possible.
Siao said:
dibbers006 said:
Valtteri is top ten drivers in the World. In. The. World!
But he's in the shade of the top five, unfortunately for him.
Mazepin is also top 20 drivers in the WORLD!!!!But he's in the shade of the top five, unfortunately for him.
Yes, Bottas hasn't shown himself in a great light in close racing.
That being said - and yes he could have moved over a car width at the start - it's the first corner, and he was mixing with with the two championship contenders and survival for them and him was probably quite high up on the priority list. Although he didn't survive long, he didn't have the ignominy of taking one of them out!
That being said - and yes he could have moved over a car width at the start - it's the first corner, and he was mixing with with the two championship contenders and survival for them and him was probably quite high up on the priority list. Although he didn't survive long, he didn't have the ignominy of taking one of them out!
I'm inclined to agree Valterri isn't a naturally agressive 'racer' as is needed to be a champion, but I can see the difficulty in that opening run to turn 1.
At the speed that it is happening, the drivers are surely mostly working on instinct, there isn't time to consciously weigh up and evaluate various defensive / offensive strategies etc. whilst judging where you think multiple cars will move, what line they'll take, whether they'll run wide, brake late / early etc.
I think it would largely have to work on instinct in order to be able to make the decisive moves quickly enough and so on.
Valterri is a team player, and knows that it's crucial Lewis beats Max. I think part of the issue in the run to turn 1, is Valterri is unable to just race instinctively, because he has to consciously think and judge what Lewis is going to do, and how he can be a good team mate and help him get an advantage over Max.
I think the run down to turn run was as simple as a bit of forced conscious thought dulling his reactions / edge. Lewis was alongside instead of behind, so now he's thinking he needs to give Lewis space but also defend against Max but ensure he doesn't get mixed up with either driver through turn 1 etc. or push Max onto the grass, as this was clarified by the stewards before the race.
I just think that forced conscious thought took him out of the necessary instinctive racing mindset, and led to it all happening too fast and ultimately no real decision being made, he just sort of did nothing.
At the speed that it is happening, the drivers are surely mostly working on instinct, there isn't time to consciously weigh up and evaluate various defensive / offensive strategies etc. whilst judging where you think multiple cars will move, what line they'll take, whether they'll run wide, brake late / early etc.
I think it would largely have to work on instinct in order to be able to make the decisive moves quickly enough and so on.
Valterri is a team player, and knows that it's crucial Lewis beats Max. I think part of the issue in the run to turn 1, is Valterri is unable to just race instinctively, because he has to consciously think and judge what Lewis is going to do, and how he can be a good team mate and help him get an advantage over Max.
I think the run down to turn run was as simple as a bit of forced conscious thought dulling his reactions / edge. Lewis was alongside instead of behind, so now he's thinking he needs to give Lewis space but also defend against Max but ensure he doesn't get mixed up with either driver through turn 1 etc. or push Max onto the grass, as this was clarified by the stewards before the race.
I just think that forced conscious thought took him out of the necessary instinctive racing mindset, and led to it all happening too fast and ultimately no real decision being made, he just sort of did nothing.
I would much rather have a beer with Valtteri than a ruthless racer like Max or Schumacher. But we are discussing racing here.
The point of this thread is not that he isn't as good as Lewis or Max, that much is clear. The point of this thread is that he isn't as good as Perez/Ricciardo/Sainz/leclerc/Norris/ etc, and his level is damaging Lewis' chance to win a championship by not being able to even be an effective tail gunner. Toto once called him a wingman, then backtracked. In reality, that title was being overgenerous. Now it looks like his performance will even cost Mercedes a constructors championship. They should have had the guts to drop Bottas earlier. They should drop him now.
The point of this thread is not that he isn't as good as Lewis or Max, that much is clear. The point of this thread is that he isn't as good as Perez/Ricciardo/Sainz/leclerc/Norris/ etc, and his level is damaging Lewis' chance to win a championship by not being able to even be an effective tail gunner. Toto once called him a wingman, then backtracked. In reality, that title was being overgenerous. Now it looks like his performance will even cost Mercedes a constructors championship. They should have had the guts to drop Bottas earlier. They should drop him now.
SturdyHSV said:
I'm inclined to agree Valterri isn't a naturally agressive 'racer' as is needed to be a champion, but I can see the difficulty in that opening run to turn 1.
At the speed that it is happening, the drivers are surely mostly working on instinct, there isn't time to consciously weigh up and evaluate various defensive / offensive strategies etc. whilst judging where you think multiple cars will move, what line they'll take, whether they'll run wide, brake late / early etc.
I think it would largely have to work on instinct in order to be able to make the decisive moves quickly enough and so on.
Valterri is a team player, and knows that it's crucial Lewis beats Max. I think part of the issue in the run to turn 1, is Valterri is unable to just race instinctively, because he has to consciously think and judge what Lewis is going to do, and how he can be a good team mate and help him get an advantage over Max.
I think the run down to turn run was as simple as a bit of forced conscious thought dulling his reactions / edge. Lewis was alongside instead of behind, so now he's thinking he needs to give Lewis space but also defend against Max but ensure he doesn't get mixed up with either driver through turn 1 etc. or push Max onto the grass, as this was clarified by the stewards before the race.
I just think that forced conscious thought took him out of the necessary instinctive racing mindset, and led to it all happening too fast and ultimately no real decision being made, he just sort of did nothing.
But that's called race craft: the winners have thought through every combination & have a strategy to deal with it, before they get to the grid. I agree he's been a good team player, Mercedes have regularly thanked him for that, & ultimately, that's what they pay both of their drivers for. However, he managed to convert maximum points into no points again, though, by fluffing the start. Dithering is for grannies in post office queues, not a grand prix...At the speed that it is happening, the drivers are surely mostly working on instinct, there isn't time to consciously weigh up and evaluate various defensive / offensive strategies etc. whilst judging where you think multiple cars will move, what line they'll take, whether they'll run wide, brake late / early etc.
I think it would largely have to work on instinct in order to be able to make the decisive moves quickly enough and so on.
Valterri is a team player, and knows that it's crucial Lewis beats Max. I think part of the issue in the run to turn 1, is Valterri is unable to just race instinctively, because he has to consciously think and judge what Lewis is going to do, and how he can be a good team mate and help him get an advantage over Max.
I think the run down to turn run was as simple as a bit of forced conscious thought dulling his reactions / edge. Lewis was alongside instead of behind, so now he's thinking he needs to give Lewis space but also defend against Max but ensure he doesn't get mixed up with either driver through turn 1 etc. or push Max onto the grass, as this was clarified by the stewards before the race.
I just think that forced conscious thought took him out of the necessary instinctive racing mindset, and led to it all happening too fast and ultimately no real decision being made, he just sort of did nothing.
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