Valtteri Bottas at Mercedes

Valtteri Bottas at Mercedes

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Fundoreen

4,180 posts

84 months

Friday 12th November 2021
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Looking at the playback of the start yesterday he should have moved agressively left to take the correct line and lewis should have moved that way also .
Whats sort of pre race talk did they have? Wonder if they fooled themselves by getting 1 and 2 in quali and decided they had it in the bag.
Max made them look a bit silly really.
Would have been a small glimmer of hope but the trajectory to the title is all max unless he DNF's
VB has had a good innings at Mercedes and it was best for both parties to try something new.

HustleRussell

24,718 posts

161 months

Friday 12th November 2021
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Fundoreen said:
Whats sort of pre race talk did they have? Wonder if they fooled themselves by getting 1 and 2 in quali and decided they had it in the bag.
Pre-race plan is public knowledge since they released the debrief.

Jake899

Original Poster:

520 posts

45 months

Monday 15th November 2021
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Drop him. Drop him now. Mercedes should bring Russell in now if they want to keep the Constructors.

Sandpit Steve

10,080 posts

75 months

Monday 15th November 2021
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Jake899 said:
Drop him. Drop him now. Mercedes should bring Russell in now if they want to keep the Constructors.
He finished on the podium yesterday, and had a pretty good race.

Yes, it would have been good to have kept his foot in at the first corner and turned MV around, but he drove well and maximised the points for the team.

Teddy Lop

8,301 posts

68 months

Monday 15th November 2021
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Sandpit Steve said:
He finished on the podium yesterday, and had a pretty good race.

Yes, it would have been good to have kept his foot in at the first corner and turned MV around, but he drove well and maximised the points for the team.
No he didn't.

His team mate came from tenth on the grid to win. Bottas converted pole into 3rd. That's pathetic. I almost felt like Toto was mocking him when he told him "c'mon go get max."

Get to formula e already.

Flooble

5,565 posts

101 months

Monday 15th November 2021
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Teddy Lop said:
Sandpit Steve said:
He finished on the podium yesterday, and had a pretty good race.

Yes, it would have been good to have kept his foot in at the first corner and turned MV around, but he drove well and maximised the points for the team.
No he didn't.

His team mate came from tenth on the grid to win. Bottas converted pole into 3rd. That's pathetic. I almost felt like Toto was mocking him when he told him "c'mon go get max."

Get to formula e already.
Be fair, Verstappen and Hamilton are on a different level. No-one would argue that Bottas (or Giovonazzi, or Ocon etc. - it's not just Bottas) should be able to go toe-to-toe with those two.

It might also be (possibly) that Mercedes need the WCC points so Bottas has to be slightly more circumspect. If he gets knocked off the track by one of Max's "move or we crash" moves, Mercedes lose out on all those WCC points, with only a small reward if Bottas did stay ahead (slightly fewer points for Max). If Hamilton gets knocked off by Max then there is the same loss of points, but set against the potential to recover the WDC. Bigger payoff for the same risk, with the same downside. So worth it for Hamilton to be more aggressive than Bottas.


Muzzer79

10,024 posts

188 months

Monday 15th November 2021
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Teddy Lop said:
Sandpit Steve said:
He finished on the podium yesterday, and had a pretty good race.

Yes, it would have been good to have kept his foot in at the first corner and turned MV around, but he drove well and maximised the points for the team.
No he didn't.

His team mate came from tenth on the grid to win. Bottas converted pole into 3rd. That's pathetic. I almost felt like Toto was mocking him when he told him "c'mon go get max."

Get to formula e already.
Yes, curse Bottas for not being as good as the most successful Grand Prix driver of all time and being beaten by a driver who won his first race on his Red Bull debut, has 19 wins and is widely considered to be the most talented driver of his generation.

Edited by Muzzer79 on Monday 15th November 10:24

Supersam83

619 posts

146 months

Monday 15th November 2021
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It was really embarrassing for Bottas.

Started on pole and finished 3rd (Courtesy of virtual safety car)

Hamilton started 10th and won the race.

Now if Bottas had started 10th with Hamilton starting on pole do you think we would have got the reverse outcome?

Alfa Romeo must be looking at their contract and trying to see if they can get a real racer in the seat for 2022.

Rosberg would have won the race from pole in that Mercedes.

oyster

12,608 posts

249 months

Monday 15th November 2021
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Supersam83 said:
It was really embarrassing for Bottas.

Started on pole and finished 3rd (Courtesy of virtual safety car)

Hamilton started 10th and won the race.

Now if Bottas had started 10th with Hamilton starting on pole do you think we would have got the reverse outcome?

Alfa Romeo must be looking at their contract and trying to see if they can get a real racer in the seat for 2022.

Rosberg would have won the race from pole in that Mercedes.
I can't work out this bizarre hatred of Bottas.

Hamilton is a 7(8)-time champion. Rosberg is a WDC too. Verstappen almost certainly will be a WDC (maybe in a few weeks).
Why would you expect Bottas to match their results and performances?

Muzzer79

10,024 posts

188 months

Monday 15th November 2021
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oyster said:
Supersam83 said:
It was really embarrassing for Bottas.

Started on pole and finished 3rd (Courtesy of virtual safety car)

Hamilton started 10th and won the race.

Now if Bottas had started 10th with Hamilton starting on pole do you think we would have got the reverse outcome?

Alfa Romeo must be looking at their contract and trying to see if they can get a real racer in the seat for 2022.

Rosberg would have won the race from pole in that Mercedes.
I can't work out this bizarre hatred of Bottas.

Hamilton is a 7(8)-time champion. Rosberg is a WDC too. Verstappen almost certainly will be a WDC (maybe in a few weeks).
Why would you expect Bottas to match their results and performances?
Precisely my point.

I must come across as an evangelical Bottas supporter........I'm not - I don't rate him especially highly.

But I don't understand why people are expecting him to beat Hamilton and Verstappen when not only he, but all the others, just aren't at that level.

The last thing Mercedes want or need is someone challenging Hamilton like Rosberg did. It's good for fans, but not for teams.

Supersam83 said:
Rosberg would have won the race from pole in that Mercedes.
And as a point of order, he 100% wouldn't if he was in Bottas' shoes because he'd have had to move over for Hamilton because of the championship positions......just like Bottas had to on lap 5.



Durzel

12,273 posts

169 months

Monday 15th November 2021
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I don't know why people expect some level of superlative performance from someone working their notice when they wouldn't expect it in any other walk of life.

This could be Bottas's level, it could be that he's going through the motions to some extent. And yes expecting him to beat Hamilton or even Verstappen when he's never been consistently capable of that before, and was not brought in as that kind of driver, seems strange.

MarkwG

4,851 posts

190 months

Monday 15th November 2021
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Muzzer79 said:
oyster said:
Supersam83 said:
It was really embarrassing for Bottas.

Started on pole and finished 3rd (Courtesy of virtual safety car)

Hamilton started 10th and won the race.

Now if Bottas had started 10th with Hamilton starting on pole do you think we would have got the reverse outcome?

Alfa Romeo must be looking at their contract and trying to see if they can get a real racer in the seat for 2022.

Rosberg would have won the race from pole in that Mercedes.
I can't work out this bizarre hatred of Bottas.

Hamilton is a 7(8)-time champion. Rosberg is a WDC too. Verstappen almost certainly will be a WDC (maybe in a few weeks).
Why would you expect Bottas to match their results and performances?
Precisely my point.

I must come across as an evangelical Bottas supporter........I'm not - I don't rate him especially highly.

But I don't understand why people are expecting him to beat Hamilton and Verstappen when not only he, but all the others, just aren't at that level.

The last thing Mercedes want or need is someone challenging Hamilton like Rosberg did. It's good for fans, but not for teams.

Supersam83 said:
Rosberg would have won the race from pole in that Mercedes.
And as a point of order, he 100% wouldn't if he was in Bottas' shoes because he'd have had to move over for Hamilton because of the championship positions......just like Bottas had to on lap 5.
I agree: Saturday he performed perfectly, got the maximum that he & the team needed, that also benefitted Hamilton by taking points away from Verstappen. Yesterday I did groan a bit when Verstappen overtook him, but thinking about it, getting taken out then wouldn't have helped either, he can't help the team if he's sitting in a smoking wreck. I wondered if he could have been better placed to steal the fastest lap off Perez when it looked likely RB would pull that one, but probably not worth the risk/hassle.

As for swapping Russell in - disagree, starting that battle at this stage of the season is too high a risk. He doesn't know the car, it doesn't really fit him, & he'd want to prove his worth, taking risks that Bottas won't need to. Bottas has made some mistakes, as they all do, his profile means he's always under the spotlight, as those mistakes have big implications, but there's no need to destabilise the team now.

Zetec-S

5,884 posts

94 months

Monday 15th November 2021
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MarkwG said:
I wondered if he could have been better placed to steal the fastest lap off Perez when it looked likely RB would pull that one, but probably not worth the risk/hassle.
Wasn't possible. He couldn't pit before Perez or he'd have lost 3rd place, Perez coming in on the penultimate lap meant there was no time for Merc/Bottas to respond.

Sandpit Steve

10,080 posts

75 months

Monday 15th November 2021
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Zetec-S said:
Wasn't possible. He couldn't pit before Perez or he'd have lost 3rd place, Perez coming in on the penultimate lap meant there was no time for Merc/Bottas to respond.
Yes, if they’d pre-emptedly pitted Bottas in front of Perez, then RB would have kept Checo out, and gained three points for 3rd place.

It seems to be unpopular to say that Valtteri had a great weekend - but he qualified 2nd on Friday, won the Sprint on Saturday, and only dropped one place (to Verstappen, who pushed him off at the first corner) on Sunday. Lewis was a gimme, and the fight with Checo worked out in Valtteri’s favour after they were able to run long and take advantage of a cheap VSC pitstop. That’s a great weekend in anyone’s book. 18 points scored.

anonymous-user

55 months

Monday 15th November 2021
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Sandpit Steve said:
Zetec-S said:
Wasn't possible. He couldn't pit before Perez or he'd have lost 3rd place, Perez coming in on the penultimate lap meant there was no time for Merc/Bottas to respond.
Yes, if they’d pre-emptedly pitted Bottas in front of Perez, then RB would have kept Checo out, and gained three points for 3rd place.

It seems to be unpopular to say that Valtteri had a great weekend - but he qualified 2nd on Friday, won the Sprint on Saturday, and only dropped one place (to Verstappen, who pushed him off at the first corner) on Sunday. Lewis was a gimme, and the fight with Checo worked out in Valtteri’s favour after they were able to run long and take advantage of a cheap VSC pitstop. That’s a great weekend in anyone’s book. 18 points scored.
It depends what you value most. If Mercedes valued the drivers title most, they would have pitted Bottas so Lewis kept the extra point as he would have just covered off Perez doing it. It would have been fun to see if Red Bull would have done the same following Bottas in, for Perez to try and take that extra point or not. and we then saw Bottas deliberately slow Perez down.

MarkwG

4,851 posts

190 months

Monday 15th November 2021
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Zetec-S said:
MarkwG said:
I wondered if he could have been better placed to steal the fastest lap off Perez when it looked likely RB would pull that one, but probably not worth the risk/hassle.
Wasn't possible. He couldn't pit before Perez or he'd have lost 3rd place, Perez coming in on the penultimate lap meant there was no time for Merc/Bottas to respond.
Yep I understand why not, either way it was out of his control.

Flooble

5,565 posts

101 months

Monday 15th November 2021
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jsf said:
It depends what you value most. If Mercedes valued the drivers title most, they would have pitted Bottas so Lewis kept the extra point as he would have just covered off Perez doing it. It would have been fun to see if Red Bull would have done the same following Bottas in, for Perez to try and take that extra point or not. and we then saw Bottas deliberately slow Perez down.
I do find that interesting - it implies Mercedes are still more interested in the three points for the constructor's than fighting for the WDC.

I reckon if it was the other way around Red Bull would have pitted Perez.

anonymous-user

55 months

Monday 15th November 2021
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Flooble said:
I do find that interesting - it implies Mercedes are still more interested in the three points for the constructor's than fighting for the WDC.

I reckon if it was the other way around Red Bull would have pitted Perez.
We might see this play out in the next 3 races as a tactic, imagine if the last race Max and Lewis are on the same points and it comes down to which number 2 takes fastest lap, how nuts would that be, biggrin

Petrus1983

8,754 posts

163 months

Monday 15th November 2021
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They’ll never drop Bottas - absolutely never. And no point in comparing him to Hamilton - it’s like Irvine vs Schumacher. We’re watching one of the greatest ever - and the last two races show that. Glad Bottas isn’t reading things like this and pushing too hard - he won the sprint and drove cleanly for a podium yesterday. Perfect.

Teddy Lop

8,301 posts

68 months

Monday 15th November 2021
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Flooble said:
Teddy Lop said:
Sandpit Steve said:
He finished on the podium yesterday, and had a pretty good race.

Yes, it would have been good to have kept his foot in at the first corner and turned MV around, but he drove well and maximised the points for the team.
No he didn't.

His team mate came from tenth on the grid to win. Bottas converted pole into 3rd. That's pathetic. I almost felt like Toto was mocking him when he told him "c'mon go get max."

Get to formula e already.
Be fair, Verstappen and Hamilton are on a different level. No-one would argue that Bottas (or Giovonazzi, or Ocon etc. - it's not just Bottas) should be able to go toe-to-toe with those two.

It might also be (possibly) that Mercedes need the WCC points so Bottas has to be slightly more circumspect. If he gets knocked off the track by one of Max's "move or we crash" moves, Mercedes lose out on all those WCC points, with only a small reward if Bottas did stay ahead (slightly fewer points for Max). If Hamilton gets knocked off by Max then there is the same loss of points, but set against the potential to recover the WDC. Bigger payoff for the same risk, with the same downside. So worth it for Hamilton to be more aggressive than Bottas.
No-ones argueing bottas should be on hamiltons level, that would be silly, there's a gulf of ability between tenth to first and first to third. Also what are you talking about on losing points, if max vercrashens bottas then neither score points, unless there's something seriously amiss with my maths that's actually better for both merc championships than Bottas allowing max to saunter past? Besides it's academic - given their relative positions max should not be thinking about bullying bottas off track and should be made to pay the price for trying.

The constant excusing and apologising and applauding bottas poor efforts is risible - you guys think you're defending him but to commend his lackluster performance and expect nothing better is a bigger insult than any criticism.