Valtteri Bottas at Mercedes
Discussion
Teddy Lop said:
Flooble said:
Teddy Lop said:
Sandpit Steve said:
He finished on the podium yesterday, and had a pretty good race.
Yes, it would have been good to have kept his foot in at the first corner and turned MV around, but he drove well and maximised the points for the team.
No he didn't.Yes, it would have been good to have kept his foot in at the first corner and turned MV around, but he drove well and maximised the points for the team.
His team mate came from tenth on the grid to win. Bottas converted pole into 3rd. That's pathetic. I almost felt like Toto was mocking him when he told him "c'mon go get max."
Get to formula e already.
It might also be (possibly) that Mercedes need the WCC points so Bottas has to be slightly more circumspect. If he gets knocked off the track by one of Max's "move or we crash" moves, Mercedes lose out on all those WCC points, with only a small reward if Bottas did stay ahead (slightly fewer points for Max). If Hamilton gets knocked off by Max then there is the same loss of points, but set against the potential to recover the WDC. Bigger payoff for the same risk, with the same downside. So worth it for Hamilton to be more aggressive than Bottas.
The constant excusing and apologising and applauding bottas poor efforts is risible - you guys think you're defending him but to commend his lackluster performance and expect nothing better is a bigger insult than any criticism.
If you assume that he's not as good as Hamilton (that much is obvious, that's why he is there in the first place) or Verstappen, then didn't he basically do the best job he could have done?
Given that the two guys above him are - by pretty much everyone's measurement - better than him, the fact he beat everyone else is surely a decent finish, isn't it?
Durzel said:
How is there a "gulf in ability" between 10th to 1st and 1st to 3rd when the 1st and 2nd place drivers ahead of Bottas ARE Hamilton and Verstappen? If "no one is arguing Bottas should be on Hamilton's level" then what are they arguing, exactly? That two or more drivers should be able to come 1st?
If you assume that he's not as good as Hamilton (that much is obvious, that's why he is there in the first place) or Verstappen, then didn't he basically do the best job he could have done?
Given that the two guys above him are - by pretty much everyone's measurement - better than him, the fact he beat everyone else is surely a decent finish, isn't it?
Any driver on the grid would be expected to execute a race start properly, regularly. You might be able to accept the odd bad start, but it's regular, and its not just the start, his loss of 2nd to Perez was poor driving too. His start choices in Mexico were also very poor.If you assume that he's not as good as Hamilton (that much is obvious, that's why he is there in the first place) or Verstappen, then didn't he basically do the best job he could have done?
Given that the two guys above him are - by pretty much everyone's measurement - better than him, the fact he beat everyone else is surely a decent finish, isn't it?
Bottas himself is not happy with his driving, he sad so in the post race interview. No doubt he is a nice guy, but he has not done himself any favours this season.
Teddy Lop said:
No-ones argueing bottas should be on hamiltons level, that would be silly, there's a gulf of ability between tenth to first and first to third. Also what are you talking about on losing points, if max vercrashens bottas then neither score points, unless there's something seriously amiss with my maths that's actually better for both merc championships than Bottas allowing max to saunter past? Besides it's academic - given their relative positions max should not be thinking about bullying bottas off track and should be made to pay the price for trying.
The constant excusing and apologising and applauding bottas poor efforts is risible - you guys think you're defending him but to commend his lackluster performance and expect nothing better is a bigger insult than any criticism.
To pick up on the points loss, I was talking about the risk versus reward calculation. There is no guarantee that both cars in an incident will DNF. The constant excusing and apologising and applauding bottas poor efforts is risible - you guys think you're defending him but to commend his lackluster performance and expect nothing better is a bigger insult than any criticism.
So to think through all possible outcomes:
Bottas doesn't let Verstappen past and they collide:
1) Both DNF : Helps out Hamilton in the WDC (massively). Helps out Mercedes in the WCC (a little)
2) Bottas DNF but Verstappen is able to continue. Significant loss to Mercedes in the WCC, makes no difference to the WDC.
3) Verstappen DNF, Bottas continues. Obviously best case scenario for the team
Bottas lets Verstappen past:
1) Net loss in the WCC and WDC, but Hamilton still has the ability to get past Verstappen and minimise the damage (i.e. yesterday's race)
Hamilton doesn't let Verstappen past and they collide:
1) Both DNF: Disaster for the WDC. Probably a good thing for the WCC though (Bottas can probably beat Perez)
2) Hamilton DNF but Verstappen can continue: Disaster for the WDC. Disaster for the WCC
3) Verstappen DNF, Hamilton Continues: Massive win for the WDC and WCC
But importantly
Hamilton lets Verstappen past:
1) Disaster for the WDC and WCC. Can't expect Bottas to get past Verstappen the way Hamilton just did.
So what I was saying is that the probabilities favour Bottas being more compliant as Hamilton is there to (potentially) make up for the loss, i.e. the downside of Bottas being compliant is limited but the downside from allowing a collision are significant.
Whereas if Hamilton is compliant, it's game over for the WDC and WCC. So Hamilton has to be more aggressive. Even though the downside from a collision is likely to end the WDC, it has a greater probability of giving Mercedes a gain in the WCC than the outcomes from a Bottas-Verstappen crash.
Or the short version: Hamilton has to beat Max and has the talent to do so. Bottas doesn't and doesn't.
Flooble said:
Teddy Lop said:
No-ones argueing bottas should be on hamiltons level, that would be silly, there's a gulf of ability between tenth to first and first to third. Also what are you talking about on losing points, if max vercrashens bottas then neither score points, unless there's something seriously amiss with my maths that's actually better for both merc championships than Bottas allowing max to saunter past? Besides it's academic - given their relative positions max should not be thinking about bullying bottas off track and should be made to pay the price for trying.
The constant excusing and apologising and applauding bottas poor efforts is risible - you guys think you're defending him but to commend his lackluster performance and expect nothing better is a bigger insult than any criticism.
To pick up on the points loss, I was talking about the risk versus reward calculation. There is no guarantee that both cars in an incident will DNF. The constant excusing and apologising and applauding bottas poor efforts is risible - you guys think you're defending him but to commend his lackluster performance and expect nothing better is a bigger insult than any criticism.
So to think through all possible outcomes:
Bottas doesn't let Verstappen past and they collide:
1) Both DNF : Helps out Hamilton in the WDC (massively). Helps out Mercedes in the WCC (a little)
2) Bottas DNF but Verstappen is able to continue. Significant loss to Mercedes in the WCC, makes no difference to the WDC.
3) Verstappen DNF, Bottas continues. Obviously best case scenario for the team
Bottas lets Verstappen past:
1) Net loss in the WCC and WDC, but Hamilton still has the ability to get past Verstappen and minimise the damage (i.e. yesterday's race)
Hamilton doesn't let Verstappen past and they collide:
1) Both DNF: Disaster for the WDC. Probably a good thing for the WCC though (Bottas can probably beat Perez)
2) Hamilton DNF but Verstappen can continue: Disaster for the WDC. Disaster for the WCC
3) Verstappen DNF, Hamilton Continues: Massive win for the WDC and WCC
But importantly
Hamilton lets Verstappen past:
1) Disaster for the WDC and WCC. Can't expect Bottas to get past Verstappen the way Hamilton just did.
So what I was saying is that the probabilities favour Bottas being more compliant as Hamilton is there to (potentially) make up for the loss, i.e. the downside of Bottas being compliant is limited but the downside from allowing a collision are significant.
Whereas if Hamilton is compliant, it's game over for the WDC and WCC. So Hamilton has to be more aggressive. Even though the downside from a collision is likely to end the WDC, it has a greater probability of giving Mercedes a gain in the WCC than the outcomes from a Bottas-Verstappen crash.
Or the short version: Hamilton has to beat Max and has the talent to do so. Bottas doesn't and doesn't.
Perhaps, in the case of Bottas there is perhaps also that slightly lower ability to dodge the incoming torpedo (e.g. if he had been trying the move yesterday when Max ran off the track, I would imagine it's possible they'd have just crashed).
If you know you can't avoid a swerve, you perhaps don't put yourself in a position where you might need to.
Interestingly Bottas was really compliant letting Hamilton past yesterday - totally different to France (? Was it France where he held Hamilton up? I forget now. You know the race I mean though?). He compromised his own race quite a bit going so slowly. So perhaps these last few races may see Bottas play the team game more than in the last few. That could be really bad news for Max.
If you know you can't avoid a swerve, you perhaps don't put yourself in a position where you might need to.
Interestingly Bottas was really compliant letting Hamilton past yesterday - totally different to France (? Was it France where he held Hamilton up? I forget now. You know the race I mean though?). He compromised his own race quite a bit going so slowly. So perhaps these last few races may see Bottas play the team game more than in the last few. That could be really bad news for Max.
hot metal said:
Valtteri handled the Saudi race weekend well I thought, just saying. didn`t come out out of looking like a dick anyway, (Max?)
Yeah, I think if he hadn't caught Ocon, he may have faced a bit a more criticism but as it turned out, solid enough result. Particularly for Merc given what happened to Perez.I've probably given VB as much stick as anyone over the last couple of seasons but actually this year he's doing a better number 2 job for Merc than Perez is at RB. I've really been quite disappointed with Perez. But it's so hard to judge that second RB seat as basically everyone struggles with it.
Byker28i said:
These threads throw so much criticism the way of these drivers, when all we do is sit in our armchairs.The reality is these are young (sometimes very young) guys living their dreams.
Imagine what it must be like to do this for a living.
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