Valtteri Bottas at Mercedes

[RichB]

HustleRussell said:

RichB said:

ELUSIVEJIM said:

<clip> But that's the problem with Russell getting the 2nd seat at Mercedes.

What is?

The bit that you ‘clipped’

The bit I clipped simply said Russell "did a Hamilton on Bottas" which I guess means he was faster. That's the bit that made no sense because obviously Mercedes will want the faster driver in the car so that is why I asked what the problem was that EJ perceives.

p.s. sorry I gave you a headache

[kambites]

RichB said:

...obviously Mercedes will want the faster driver in the car...

I would say there is very good evidence that this statement is false, or Bottas wouldn't still be there now. Mercedes want the highest scoring driver pairing, which often will not be the two fastest drivers.

[Muzzer79]

CanoeSniffer said:

Muzzer79 said:

49 podiums in 82 races for Mercedes and you think Bottas isn't justifying the seat.

Maybe it’s just me but when it’s picked out like that I think that stat actually makes Bottas sound very poor indeed.

My man maths puts that somewhere in the region of 60% podium finishes in what has been very much the strongest machine during Bottas’ tenure at Merc- for him NOT to finish on the podium he has to have been beaten by two inferior cars (notwithstanding Ferrari’s brief glimpses of promise which may account for one or two seasons depending how you judge it).

You're assuming that in the 40% of races where he hasn't finished on the podium, it's because he wasn't fast enough.

I don't have the time to look into each of those races, but I would confidently say that a significant portion were due to incidents not of his making or mechanical failure.

[HustleRussell]

RichB said:

HustleRussell said:

RichB said:

ELUSIVEJIM said:

<clip> But that's the problem with Russell getting the 2nd seat at Mercedes.

What is?

The bit that you ‘clipped’

The bit I clipped simply said Russell "did a Hamilton on Bottas" which I guess means he was faster. That's the bit that made no sense because obviously Mercedes will want the faster driver in the car so that is why I asked what the problem was that EJ perceives.

p.s. sorry I gave you a headache

Why are you now re-writing somebody else’s words? Not necessary when the original post is still there in full.

ELUSIVEJIM said:

Russell proved his point last year making a fool of Bottas in a car he wasn't even comfortable in. He basically did a Hamilton on Bottas.

But that's the problem with Russell getting the 2nd seat at Mercedes.

You can tell there is real friction between Bottas and Russell by what happened at Imola.

[RichB]

I'm not, I quoted him verbatim If you mean I clipped the post it's something I've done for 22 years on Pistonheads in order to avoid massive long threads with embedded quotes. Everyone can read what my post referred to because it was only one or two previous and there was no intention of twisting words - if that's what you are implying! - which I assume not but I can't think what else you were getting at?

Anyway as this thread is just another example of an aggressive F1 thread I'll bow out and leave you to your snarky comments.

[HustleRussell]

RichB said:

Anyway as this thread is just another example of an aggressive F1 thread I'll bow out and leave you to your snarky comments.

Cheerio. Good luck in your search for a less ‘aggressive’ thread on PH

[ajprice]

Red Bull are better this year, so Max is closer to Lewis. Where the normal result with no incidents last year would have been Hamilton/Bottas/Verstappen, now it's going to be Hamilton/Verstappen/Bottas, or Verstappen/Hamilton/Bottas, with Perez mixing it up in there once he's settled.

In a No1 No2 driver setup the second driver needs to be hassling Verstappen in the races but still a step behind Hamilton. Bottas isn't that. If No2 is as fast as Hamilton, they take points away from each other. In 2016 Rosberg won and it was purely between the two Mercedes. Now, if they put Russell in the Merc and the wins split between Hamilton, Russell and Verstappen, Mercedes could lose out on the championship. It's a fiddly one to get right.

[Muzzer79]

Muzzer79 said:

CanoeSniffer said:

Muzzer79 said:

49 podiums in 82 races for Mercedes and you think Bottas isn't justifying the seat.

Maybe it’s just me but when it’s picked out like that I think that stat actually makes Bottas sound very poor indeed.

My man maths puts that somewhere in the region of 60% podium finishes in what has been very much the strongest machine during Bottas’ tenure at Merc- for him NOT to finish on the podium he has to have been beaten by two inferior cars (notwithstanding Ferrari’s brief glimpses of promise which may account for one or two seasons depending how you judge it).

You're assuming that in the 40% of races where he hasn't finished on the podium, it's because he wasn't fast enough.

I don't have the time to look into each of those races, but I would confidently say that a significant portion were due to incidents not of his making or mechanical failure.

Example - 2020.

Bottas was off the podium 6 times in 17 races.

1 British GP - Puncture at the end
2 Italian GP - Poor start, couldn't recover
3 Eifel GP - Power unit failure
4 Turkish GP - Had a nightmare in the wet
5 Bahrain GP - Another puncture
6 Sakhir GP - Mercedes pit stop Keystone Cops-style

So, of those 6 races off the podium, 2 were 'his fault' in a whole year.

Now, if you compare that to Hamilton, who was off the podium only twice in the whole year, once being his fault, it's not as good but Hamilton is a 7-time champion.

I think Valtteri's results are perfectly acceptable for a second driver, supporting the most successful driver of all time.

[sparta6]

Muzzer79 said:

Example - 2020.

Bottas was off the podium 6 times in 17 races.

1 British GP - Puncture at the end
2 Italian GP - Poor start, couldn't recover
3 Eifel GP - Power unit failure
4 Turkish GP - Had a nightmare in the wet
5 Bahrain GP - Another puncture
6 Sakhir GP - Mercedes pit stop Keystone Cops-style

So, of those 6 races off the podium, 2 were 'his fault' in a whole year.

Now, if you compare that to Hamilton, who was off the podium only twice in the whole year, once being his fault, it's not as good but Hamilton is a 7-time champion.

I think Valtteri's results are perfectly acceptable for a second driver, supporting the most successful driver of all time.

Car #44 is the most reliable in history.

4 x technical DNF's since 2014 ?

[Muzzer79]

sparta6 said:

Muzzer79 said:

Example - 2020.

Bottas was off the podium 6 times in 17 races.

1 British GP - Puncture at the end
2 Italian GP - Poor start, couldn't recover
3 Eifel GP - Power unit failure
4 Turkish GP - Had a nightmare in the wet
5 Bahrain GP - Another puncture
6 Sakhir GP - Mercedes pit stop Keystone Cops-style

So, of those 6 races off the podium, 2 were 'his fault' in a whole year.

Now, if you compare that to Hamilton, who was off the podium only twice in the whole year, once being his fault, it's not as good but Hamilton is a 7-time champion.

I think Valtteri's results are perfectly acceptable for a second driver, supporting the most successful driver of all time.

Car #44 is the most reliable in history.

4 x technical DNF's since 2014 ?

And.....?

[Sandpit Steve]

Muzzer79 said:

Example - 2020.

Bottas was off the podium 6 times in 17 races.

1 British GP - Puncture at the end
2 Italian GP - Poor start, couldn't recover
3 Eifel GP - Power unit failure
4 Turkish GP - Had a nightmare in the wet
5 Bahrain GP - Another puncture
6 Sakhir GP - Mercedes pit stop Keystone Cops-style

So, of those 6 races off the podium, 2 were 'his fault' in a whole year.

Now, if you compare that to Hamilton, who was off the podium only twice in the whole year, once being his fault, it's not as good but Hamilton is a 7-time champion.

I think Valtteri's results are perfectly acceptable for a second driver, supporting the most successful driver of all time.

Exactly.

He’s probably not going to challenge Lewis for the title, but he’s usually there or thereabouts (compare with Red Bull, who have struggled to find someone to run close to Max) and makes sure of the Constructors’ championship every year, which is what generates the prize money.

The team have experience of two drivers fighting with each other for the title previously, and it was a nightmare for them, having a driver who’s 99% of Lewis without having to formally call them #1and #2, or mess around too much with team orders, has served them well for the past four years.

That said, they can’t leave GR in a Williams forever, and I expect Toto will be selling the new Williams management on the benefits of a decade-experienced driver who knows the team well already, when it comes to developing their new car next season.

[Muzzer79]

Sandpit Steve said:

Muzzer79 said:

Example - 2020.

Bottas was off the podium 6 times in 17 races.

1 British GP - Puncture at the end
2 Italian GP - Poor start, couldn't recover
3 Eifel GP - Power unit failure
4 Turkish GP - Had a nightmare in the wet
5 Bahrain GP - Another puncture
6 Sakhir GP - Mercedes pit stop Keystone Cops-style

So, of those 6 races off the podium, 2 were 'his fault' in a whole year.

Now, if you compare that to Hamilton, who was off the podium only twice in the whole year, once being his fault, it's not as good but Hamilton is a 7-time champion.

I think Valtteri's results are perfectly acceptable for a second driver, supporting the most successful driver of all time.

Exactly.

He’s probably not going to challenge Lewis for the title, but he’s usually there or thereabouts (compare with Red Bull, who have struggled to find someone to run close to Max) and makes sure of the Constructors’ championship every year, which is what generates the prize money.

The team have experience of two drivers fighting with each other for the title previously, and it was a nightmare for them, having a driver who’s 99% of Lewis without having to formally call them #1and #2, or mess around too much with team orders, has served them well for the past four years.

That said, they can’t leave GR in a Williams forever, and I expect Toto will be selling the new Williams management on the benefits of a decade-experienced driver who knows the team well already, when it comes to developing their new car next season.

Quite. Bottas is Gerhard Berger or Rubens Barrichello. He's not Ayrton Senna or Michael Schumacher.

But that's fine - not everyone can be Ayrton Senna or Michael Schumacher, nor should they be.

I can't see him going back to Williams though. As a race winner, driving for the most successful team of modern times, I think he'll only go midfield or he'll jump to another series.

[nickfrog]

sparta6 said:

Car #44 is the most reliable in history.

4 x technical DNF's since 2014 ?

Including Sepang 2016 of course...

I am sure it's your way to say that you don't rate LH as a driver so you might as well be upfront with it.

[Bright Halo]

What Mercedes do not want is for Lewis to score enough points to win the WDC but his teammate to constantly finish behind the Redbull (or whoever) pairing allowing them to take the Constructors title.
If Mercedes think that is likely with Bottas he will swapped for someone else.

[DanL]

sparta6 said:

Car #44 is the most reliable in history.

4 x technical DNF's since 2014 ?

It’s remarkable how well he can look after the car while also getting such great results, isn’t it? The mark of a great driver, I’m sure you’d agree.

[sparta6]

nickfrog said:

sparta6 said:

Car #44 is the most reliable in history.

4 x technical DNF's since 2014 ?

Including Sepang 2016 of course...

I am sure it's your way to say that you don't rate LH as a driver so you might as well be upfront with it.

Not at all.

It does however show that Lewis has enjoyed the rub-of-the-green for many years.

Unprecedented car reliability.

[sparta6]

DanL said:

sparta6 said:

Car #44 is the most reliable in history.

4 x technical DNF's since 2014 ?

It’s remarkable how well he can look after the car while also getting such great results, isn’t it? The mark of a great driver, I’m sure you’d agree.

Rosberg got Hamilton's engineers in 2016.
Seemed to make a tangible difference.

[A44RON]

at least Toto was honest enough to admit during the race over team radio they have the fastest car in F1 still... - "Valtteri, hurry up! You have a faster car than Max!"

[nickfrog]

sparta6 said:

nickfrog said:

sparta6 said:

Car #44 is the most reliable in history.

4 x technical DNF's since 2014 ?

Including Sepang 2016 of course...

I am sure it's your way to say that you don't rate LH as a driver so you might as well be upfront with it.

Not at all.

It does however show that Lewis has enjoyed the rub-of-the-green for many years.

He even lives in your head rent free.

[Exige77]

A44RON said:

at least Toto was honest enough to admit during the race over team radio they have the fastest car in F1 still... - "Valtteri, hurry up! You have a faster car than Max!"

Toto was trying to motivate VB a bit.

Not sure “you’ve got the Second fastest car , get a move on” would have been apt.

Unless you really take what the teams say in the radio as gospel ?

No one would really think that would they ?