Valtteri Bottas at Mercedes
Discussion
Adrian W said:
Surely Bottas has had his chance in the best car, with all the new talent queueing up why does he deserve a seat at all?
There are lots of hungry up and coming drivers, that's for sure. But the general rule seems to be in an ideal world, you pick one fast rookie and one experienced racer.Now Bottas may not be good enough for the Mercedes seat, but he is a proven race winner, and knows the intimate workings of the most successful team in modern history. He knows what a good car feels like.
That makes him a locked on asset for any team in mid table or lower who wants to improve and wants to harvest that knowledge.
Now politics dictate that he has to be more likely to go to a Mercedes associated team than the junior Ferrari team, though it's not inconceivable that he could end up in a "neutral" team like Alpine, except their lineup is booked for next season.
Adrian W said:
Surely Bottas has had his chance in the best car, with all the new talent queueing up why does he deserve a seat at all?
Hamilton previously had Rosberg, Schumacher had Irvine, Vettel had Webber, Alonso Fisichella.I'd say in the history of WDC, having an experienced second seat driver has proven to be better than a hot-head rookie.
Just look at 2007.
Bear in mind best option might not necessarily be the fastest driver out there. Bottas is a journeyman, in my opinion, but he keeps his head down, doesn't make a lot of noise, doesn't cause friction within the team.
He is basically an ideal second driver, competent enough (historically at least) to get constructor points for the team without having that killer instinct that would lead to incidents as happened with Rosberg. That's why Hamilton is so happy to have him around, and flatters him without seriously believing he will be a challenge.
If (when) Mercedes replace him with Russell that will be a clear sign that they see him as the future of the team, since Russell won't be happy with playing second fiddle.
He is basically an ideal second driver, competent enough (historically at least) to get constructor points for the team without having that killer instinct that would lead to incidents as happened with Rosberg. That's why Hamilton is so happy to have him around, and flatters him without seriously believing he will be a challenge.
If (when) Mercedes replace him with Russell that will be a clear sign that they see him as the future of the team, since Russell won't be happy with playing second fiddle.
Evanivitch said:
Adrian W said:
Surely Bottas has had his chance in the best car, with all the new talent queueing up why does he deserve a seat at all?
Hamilton previously had Rosberg, Schumacher had Irvine, Vettel had Webber, Alonso Fisichella.I'd say in the history of WDC, having an experienced second seat driver has proven to be better than a hot-head rookie.
Just look at 2007.
DaveE87 said:
Evanivitch said:
Adrian W said:
Surely Bottas has had his chance in the best car, with all the new talent queueing up why does he deserve a seat at all?
Hamilton previously had Rosberg, Schumacher had Irvine, Vettel had Webber, Alonso Fisichella.I'd say in the history of WDC, having an experienced second seat driver has proven to be better than a hot-head rookie.
Just look at 2007.
It hardly matters anyway - it's pretty clear the previous posters point was that a young, thrusting and perhaps desperate to prove themselves driver can be more of a handful in terms of team harmony than can be justified by their performance alone - even if their performance is very good. Arguing the toss over what defines experience vs 'rookie' doesn't change or disprove that point.
Team harmony will be a factor that Toto will have to consider. In turn he has to consider how likely it is that Lewis will get the all important 8th title this season.. If after the next couple of races he's got a reasonable points advantage, I'm willing to bet Toto would be very keen to get George in to the other car next season. If however the Lewis does not do so well vs Max by the time Toto has to make the final decision, he might be more minded to maintain the status quo going in to 22' to give Lewis the best shot possible.
TheDeuce said:
Does 2 and a bit seasons in a generally uncompetive car in racing terms = an experienced driver? I'd say that's a below average level of experience compared to the grid average surely?
It hardly matters anyway - it's pretty clear the previous posters point was that a young, thrusting and perhaps desperate to prove themselves driver can be more of a handful in terms of team harmony than can be justified by their performance alone - even if their performance is very good. Arguing the toss over what defines experience vs 'rookie' doesn't change or disprove that point.
Team harmony will be a factor that Toto will have to consider. In turn he has to consider how likely it is that Lewis will get the all important 8th title this season.. If after the next couple of races he's got a reasonable points advantage, I'm willing to bet Toto would be very keen to get George in to the other car next season. If however the Lewis does not do so well vs Max by the time Toto has to make the final decision, he might be more minded to maintain the status quo going in to 22' to give Lewis the best shot possible.
Toto has already said that the decision has been made. They aren't waiting a couple more races to make the decision (whichever way it has gone) they are waiting to announce once all the contracts are signed. Maybe Kimi's announcement allows one more to be signed, maybe not.It hardly matters anyway - it's pretty clear the previous posters point was that a young, thrusting and perhaps desperate to prove themselves driver can be more of a handful in terms of team harmony than can be justified by their performance alone - even if their performance is very good. Arguing the toss over what defines experience vs 'rookie' doesn't change or disprove that point.
Team harmony will be a factor that Toto will have to consider. In turn he has to consider how likely it is that Lewis will get the all important 8th title this season.. If after the next couple of races he's got a reasonable points advantage, I'm willing to bet Toto would be very keen to get George in to the other car next season. If however the Lewis does not do so well vs Max by the time Toto has to make the final decision, he might be more minded to maintain the status quo going in to 22' to give Lewis the best shot possible.
Adrian W said:
Surely Bottas has had his chance in the best car, with all the new talent queueing up why does he deserve a seat at all?
Whilst midfield and back-of-grid teams would all love a Lewis Hamilton, they can't all get one.They take the next best thing, which is a proven race winner with experience.
The problem with new talent is that it's unproven - if you wanted to build your team up to rise up the grid, why would you take Oscar Piastri over Valtteri Bottas when one has hardly driven an F1 car and the other has had 5 years in the top team and won 9 races?
These cars are complicated to drive. Tyre management is a skill in itself. Driving the car fast is only a part of the job nowadays and, for the vast majority, the other factors for success are very much learned over time.
TheDeuce said:
Does 2 and a bit seasons in a generally uncompetive car in racing terms = an experienced driver? I'd say that's a below average level of experience compared to the grid average surely?
It hardly matters anyway - it's pretty clear the previous posters point was that a young, thrusting and perhaps desperate to prove themselves driver can be more of a handful in terms of team harmony than can be justified by their performance alone - even if their performance is very good. Arguing the toss over what defines experience vs 'rookie' doesn't change or disprove that point.
Team harmony will be a factor that Toto will have to consider. In turn he has to consider how likely it is that Lewis will get the all important 8th title this season.. If after the next couple of races he's got a reasonable points advantage, I'm willing to bet Toto would be very keen to get George in to the other car next season. If however the Lewis does not do so well vs Max by the time Toto has to make the final decision, he might be more minded to maintain the status quo going in to 22' to give Lewis the best shot possible.
2 and a bit seasons is more experienced than rookie imo. Rookie mistakes should be at a minimum after year 1.It hardly matters anyway - it's pretty clear the previous posters point was that a young, thrusting and perhaps desperate to prove themselves driver can be more of a handful in terms of team harmony than can be justified by their performance alone - even if their performance is very good. Arguing the toss over what defines experience vs 'rookie' doesn't change or disprove that point.
Team harmony will be a factor that Toto will have to consider. In turn he has to consider how likely it is that Lewis will get the all important 8th title this season.. If after the next couple of races he's got a reasonable points advantage, I'm willing to bet Toto would be very keen to get George in to the other car next season. If however the Lewis does not do so well vs Max by the time Toto has to make the final decision, he might be more minded to maintain the status quo going in to 22' to give Lewis the best shot possible.
I'm a Hamilton fan but it's not doing the sport well if Merc let another youngster down. I still think Ocon should have partnered Hamilton a couple of years ago. GR needs this seat. If the Hypercars do well in WEC we'll end up losing some talent from F1 altogether in 2023.
DaveE87 said:
TheDeuce said:
Does 2 and a bit seasons in a generally uncompetive car in racing terms = an experienced driver? I'd say that's a below average level of experience compared to the grid average surely?
It hardly matters anyway - it's pretty clear the previous posters point was that a young, thrusting and perhaps desperate to prove themselves driver can be more of a handful in terms of team harmony than can be justified by their performance alone - even if their performance is very good. Arguing the toss over what defines experience vs 'rookie' doesn't change or disprove that point.
Team harmony will be a factor that Toto will have to consider. In turn he has to consider how likely it is that Lewis will get the all important 8th title this season.. If after the next couple of races he's got a reasonable points advantage, I'm willing to bet Toto would be very keen to get George in to the other car next season. If however the Lewis does not do so well vs Max by the time Toto has to make the final decision, he might be more minded to maintain the status quo going in to 22' to give Lewis the best shot possible.
2 and a bit seasons is more experienced than rookie imo. Rookie mistakes should be at a minimum after year 1.It hardly matters anyway - it's pretty clear the previous posters point was that a young, thrusting and perhaps desperate to prove themselves driver can be more of a handful in terms of team harmony than can be justified by their performance alone - even if their performance is very good. Arguing the toss over what defines experience vs 'rookie' doesn't change or disprove that point.
Team harmony will be a factor that Toto will have to consider. In turn he has to consider how likely it is that Lewis will get the all important 8th title this season.. If after the next couple of races he's got a reasonable points advantage, I'm willing to bet Toto would be very keen to get George in to the other car next season. If however the Lewis does not do so well vs Max by the time Toto has to make the final decision, he might be more minded to maintain the status quo going in to 22' to give Lewis the best shot possible.
I'm a Hamilton fan but it's not doing the sport well if Merc let another youngster down. I still think Ocon should have partnered Hamilton a couple of years ago. GR needs this seat. If the Hypercars do well in WEC we'll end up losing some talent from F1 altogether in 2023.
What's good for the sport is one consideration, as is what's good for George. In the end, they'll do what's overall best for the team and it's commercial interests. A very potent commercial interest is Lewis smashing MSC's records whilst at Merc... That kinda trumps normal team interests such as driver succession for when Lewis eventually departs.
Fwiw I think it's very likely George will get that seat next season. If Lewis does look like he won't get that 8th title this season however, that will increasingly push favour back towards keeping Bottas for 22'
If the rumours are true that Bottas is signing for Alfa then it's safe to assume George will be confirmed. It will probably push Lewis that little bit more to try get #8 this season too. I get what you're saying but Lewis' achievements will be worth "more" if he does it with George alongside him. I don't see this being a repeat of Seb and Charles like many seem to be assuming. It's not clear if Lewis has actually peaked yet.
Bottas dropping clear hints that he's looking elsewhere for next year...
https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/bottas-multi-ye...
https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/bottas-multi-ye...
DaveE87 said:
If the rumours are true that Bottas is signing for Alfa then it's safe to assume George will be confirmed. It will probably push Lewis that little bit more to try get #8 this season too. I get what you're saying but Lewis' achievements will be worth "more" if he does it with George alongside him. I don't see this being a repeat of Seb and Charles like many seem to be assuming. It's not clear if Lewis has actually peaked yet.
Worth remembering that rumours can be both founded on truth, but also quite misleading.It's entirely possible that Bottas has indeed discussed and agreed contract terms with Alfa, or perhaps Williams - or even both. But beyond agreeing terms, no intent to actually sign anything until Mercedes make their final decision as to whether or not they retain him.
Regards what Lewis's achievements are worth - they're worth most to the team if he gets #8 whilst driving for Merc, and ASAP too. In the very short term, us as fans might find it more impressive if Lewis beats George as opposed to beating Bottas... but longer term it won't matter how he gets to 8 titles, just so long as he does. It's likely his path to #8 will be easier/smoother with Bottas in the second car.
TheDeuce said:
Fwiw I think it's very likely George will get that seat next season. If Lewis does look like he won't get that 8th title this season however, that will increasingly push favour back towards keeping Bottas for 22'
8th title for Hamilton makes absolutely no difference IMO. The title probably won't be decided until very late in the season anyway.George is the future. Bottas has done a perfectly adequate job, but they need a successor to Hamilton, which he isn't.
George will be in for next year. The next problem will be sorting a team-mate for him in 2024, but they've obviously got time for that.
thegreenhell said:
Bottas dropping clear hints that he's looking elsewhere for next year...
https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/bottas-multi-ye...
Given that Williams (a) are showing some progress, and (b) appear to have some money behind them now, he could possibly do worse than a multi-year contract there with very large incentive payments for points. That would give him something very clear to aim for.https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/bottas-multi-ye...
Muzzer79 said:
TheDeuce said:
Fwiw I think it's very likely George will get that seat next season. If Lewis does look like he won't get that 8th title this season however, that will increasingly push favour back towards keeping Bottas for 22'
8th title for Hamilton makes absolutely no difference IMO. The title probably won't be decided until very late in the season anyway.George is the future. Bottas has done a perfectly adequate job, but they need a successor to Hamilton, which he isn't.
George will be in for next year. The next problem will be sorting a team-mate for him in 2024, but they've obviously got time for that.
I suspect they consider that to be quite valuable. Having a successor for Lewis is also valuable of course... But for a car manufacturer like Merc, nothing can really compare to entering the F1 game, rewriting the records and remaining unbeaten for years to come - even if they do have a couple of duff years afterwards due to sacrificing how soon they bring George in to the team.
For reference how often has MS been mentioned since it started to look like Lewis could equal or beat his 7 WDC's? And with every mention, there is also mention of Ferrari and him wearing his Ferrari race suit and/or in a Ferrari car.
Anyway, as I said, you and me and pretty much everyone else will probably be happy as it IS likely George will drive for them in 22', on the basis it is also likely that Lewis will beat Max this season, taking in to account RB have engine penalties and Merc appear to still be upgrading their car. But in order to be as confident as possible about which way the championship is headed, I do expect they'll delay a final decision as long as they feel they can.
Kimi announces retirement from F1 at end of the year.
Dutch Grand Prix: Kimi Raikkonen says Formula 1 'has never been my life' https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/58371856
Dutch Grand Prix: Kimi Raikkonen says Formula 1 'has never been my life' https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/58371856
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