Official 2021 Azerbaijan Grand Prix Thread ***SPOILERS***

[kiseca]

TheDeuce said:

kiseca said:

TheDeuce said:

jsf said:

The rules are.

12.7 Treatment of tyres
12.7.1 Tyres may only be inflated with air or nitrogen.
12.7.2 Any process the intent of which is to reduce the amount of moisture in the tyre and/or in its inflation gas is forbidden.
12.7.3 The only permitted type of tyre heating devices are blankets which use resistive heating elements. The heating elements may only act upon the outer tyre surface.

So that's a great big DOH!

A rule set in the olden days where we tried to dry the air in the tyre, not make it wetter.

Non of those are a barrier to more or less whatever pressure they want to end up with in the race

I would normally say that the FIA need the teams to bend/undermine the rules in order for them to figure out how to better regulate... But in this instance I can't understand why Pirelli haven't pro-actively suggested a tightening of the regs..? They will know the regs as they stand are hopeless and surely don't want the impression that their tyres fail even under prescribed use.

In fact it's such a gaping and obvious weak spot in the regs, it suggests those with influence have been for whatever reason quite happy to allow it to remain that way.

Aren't there a separate set of rule - or guidelines - provided by Pirelli that hold the minimum pressures under starting conditions? Perhaps the maximum heat is in there.

I'm pretty sure that even without all the changes being suggested that rule 12.7 isn't the only thing that is controlling the starting condition of the tyres today.

I'm sure pirelli provide guidelines but I'm not sure they can actually dictate rules - beyond whatever they petition to be added to the FIA regs.

Or if such 'additional' rules did exist, it's odd none of the media surrounding this topic haven't quoted them and also odd that the FIA regs don't point to them.

I'd be interested to know for sure though.

Yes I was thinking that as I wrote it and carefully worded it to try not just say "Pirelli's rules"

However, from one of the links yesterday, it said something about the FIA reminding the teams to follow Pirelli's guidelines or whatever, which means they expect the teams to comply with what Pirelli want not just at the start but during the race.

[TheDeuce]

kiseca said:

TheDeuce said:

kiseca said:

TheDeuce said:

jsf said:

The rules are.

12.7 Treatment of tyres
12.7.1 Tyres may only be inflated with air or nitrogen.
12.7.2 Any process the intent of which is to reduce the amount of moisture in the tyre and/or in its inflation gas is forbidden.
12.7.3 The only permitted type of tyre heating devices are blankets which use resistive heating elements. The heating elements may only act upon the outer tyre surface.

So that's a great big DOH!

A rule set in the olden days where we tried to dry the air in the tyre, not make it wetter.

Non of those are a barrier to more or less whatever pressure they want to end up with in the race

I would normally say that the FIA need the teams to bend/undermine the rules in order for them to figure out how to better regulate... But in this instance I can't understand why Pirelli haven't pro-actively suggested a tightening of the regs..? They will know the regs as they stand are hopeless and surely don't want the impression that their tyres fail even under prescribed use.

In fact it's such a gaping and obvious weak spot in the regs, it suggests those with influence have been for whatever reason quite happy to allow it to remain that way.

Aren't there a separate set of rule - or guidelines - provided by Pirelli that hold the minimum pressures under starting conditions? Perhaps the maximum heat is in there.

I'm pretty sure that even without all the changes being suggested that rule 12.7 isn't the only thing that is controlling the starting condition of the tyres today.

I'm sure pirelli provide guidelines but I'm not sure they can actually dictate rules - beyond whatever they petition to be added to the FIA regs.

Or if such 'additional' rules did exist, it's odd none of the media surrounding this topic haven't quoted them and also odd that the FIA regs don't point to them.

I'd be interested to know for sure though.

Yes I was thinking that as I wrote it and carefully worded it to try not just say "Pirelli's rules"

However, from one of the links yesterday, it said something about the FIA reminding the teams to follow Pirelli's guidelines or whatever, which means they expect the teams to comply with what Pirelli want not just at the start but during the race.

Interesting..

Question is, is that the FIA saying teams 'should' or 'must' follow FIA guidelines? If the latter, is it in the FIA regs that they must follow all guidance?

[MontyPythonX]

Could you have it where Pirelli supply the tyres to the team for the race weekend fully inflated, to a pressure that the teams specified. And then it is illegal for the teams to change the pressure/air in the tyre without Pirelli being present or teams have to return the tyres to the Pirelli area so Pirelli make all of the changes?

[carl_w]

Adrian W said:

Surely air composition is oxygen, nitrogen and this lot from a wiki :-

Nitrogen N2 780,840 78.084
Oxygen O2 209,460 20.946
Argon Ar 9,340 0.9340
Carbon dioxide
(December, 2020)(C)[13] CO
2 415.00 0.041500
Neon Ne 18.18 0.001818
Helium He 5.24 0.000524
Methane CH4 1.87 0.000187
Krypton Kr 1.14 0.000114
Not included in above dry atmosphere:
Water vapor(D) H2O 0–30,000(D) 0–3%(E)

So surely if they tamper with it they are breaking rule 12.7.1 ?

The clue is in the last line:
Water vapor(D) H2O 0–30,000(D) 0–3%(E)

They can add water into the air supply to make it up to 3% by volume.

[TheDeuce]

carl_w said:

Adrian W said:

Surely air composition is oxygen, nitrogen and this lot from a wiki :-

Nitrogen N2 780,840 78.084
Oxygen O2 209,460 20.946
Argon Ar 9,340 0.9340
Carbon dioxide
(December, 2020)(C)[13] CO
2 415.00 0.041500
Neon Ne 18.18 0.001818
Helium He 5.24 0.000524
Methane CH4 1.87 0.000187
Krypton Kr 1.14 0.000114
Not included in above dry atmosphere:
Water vapor(D) H2O 0–30,000(D) 0–3%(E)

So surely if they tamper with it they are breaking rule 12.7.1 ?

The clue is in the last line:
Water vapor(D) H2O 0–30,000(D) 0–3%(E)

They can add water into the air supply to make it up to 3% by volume.

3% water vapour in the gaseous mix, not 3% water by volume... That would be a lot of water sloshing around!

[Adrian W]

carl_w said:

Adrian W said:

Surely air composition is oxygen, nitrogen and this lot from a wiki :-

Nitrogen N2 780,840 78.084
Oxygen O2 209,460 20.946
Argon Ar 9,340 0.9340
Carbon dioxide
(December, 2020)(C)[13] CO
2 415.00 0.041500
Neon Ne 18.18 0.001818
Helium He 5.24 0.000524
Methane CH4 1.87 0.000187
Krypton Kr 1.14 0.000114
Not included in above dry atmosphere:
Water vapor(D) H2O 0–30,000(D) 0–3%(E)

So surely if they tamper with it they are breaking rule 12.7.1 ?

The clue is in the last line:
Water vapor(D) H2O 0–30,000(D) 0–3%(E)

They can add water into the air supply to make it up to 3% by volume.

Normally when you compress air you dry it, by not drying it, it is already 3%, I should have worded my question better, so how much water have they got to put in to drop it say a bar?

[Megaflow]

MontyPythonX said:

Could you have it where Pirelli supply the tyres to the team for the race weekend fully inflated, to a pressure that the teams specified. And then it is illegal for the teams to change the pressure/air in the tyre without Pirelli being present or teams have to return the tyres to the Pirelli area so Pirelli make all of the changes?

Potentially. But tyre pressure adjustment used to be, before teams just started running to the absolute minimum, or as it appears to be for some below the minimum, a useful set up tool, and one of the few things that can be agitated during the race.

It’s all a moot point though because of the mandated TPMS system for next year that the FIA will have a live data feed from.

[Sandpit Steve]

Megaflow said:

Potentially. But tyre pressure adjustment used to be, before teams just started running to the absolute minimum, or as it appears to be for some below the minimum, a useful set up tool, and one of the few things that can be agitated during the race.

It’s all a moot point though because of the mandated TPMS system for next year that the FIA will have a live data feed from.

Interesting point about the standard FIA TPMS next season, hadn’t realised that.

Presumably then, any car with pressures too low can then be given a black and orange flag, and forced to pit to change it?

[kiseca]

TheDeuce said:

Interesting..

Question is, is that the FIA saying teams 'should' or 'must' follow FIA guidelines? If the latter, is it in the FIA regs that they must follow all guidance?

Angrymoby shared this link:
https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/f1-teams-face-ne...

In it is the following quote:

the article said:

In a technical directive sent to teams ahead of the Paul Ricard race, the FIA reminded teams that it was their responsibility to ensure that the running pressure of tyres were above those stipulated in the prescriptions laid down by Pirelli.

Translate that how you will. Whether they've broken a rule, or if it's more like they disobeyed the teacher, I can't tell but I'm sure it's closer to the latter.

To me, the teams clearly knew what was intended, clearly knew why, and if any have then chose to find ways to circumvent the wording to run outside of the intended parameters and thus put a safety risk not only on their own drivers but also any others that might be unlucky enough to be close to them, no to mention the marshals, I'll lose respect for them.

[TheDeuce]

kiseca said:

TheDeuce said:

Interesting..

Question is, is that the FIA saying teams 'should' or 'must' follow FIA guidelines? If the latter, is it in the FIA regs that they must follow all guidance?

Angrymoby shared this link:
https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/f1-teams-face-ne...

In it is the following quote:

the article said:

In a technical directive sent to teams ahead of the Paul Ricard race, the FIA reminded teams that it was their responsibility to ensure that the running pressure of tyres were above those stipulated in the prescriptions laid down by Pirelli.

Translate that how you will. Whether they've broken a rule, or if it's more like they disobeyed the teacher, I can't tell but I'm sure it's closer to the latter.

To me, the teams clearly knew what was intended, clearly knew why, and if any have then chose to find ways to circumvent the wording to run outside of the intended parameters and thus put a safety risk not only on their own drivers but also any others that might be unlucky enough to be close to them, no to mention the marshals, I'll lose respect for them.

Thanks - I read it that way too, basically reminded it's their responsibility/problem.

Also in the posts above, I hadn't realised the FIA would have live pressure monitoring next season, but the fact they do suggests there is genuine concern over the teams playing loose with pressures! I can understand that frustrating pirelli as it makes them look bad when it all goes wrong..

[anonymous-user]

There is no definition in the technical regs as to what air is.

It may be in an appendix somewhere else, not had time to trawl through all those.

JFYI most modern race tyres have a working pressure range of 0.3Bar you can run them in when using blankets, it's not a big window.

[MontyPythonX]

Megaflow said:

Potentially. But tyre pressure adjustment used to be, before teams just started running to the absolute minimum, or as it appears to be for some below the minimum, a useful set up tool, and one of the few things that can be agitated during the race.

It’s all a moot point though because of the mandated TPMS system for next year that the FIA will have a live data feed from.

Ah, didn't realise they were bringing in TPMS next year. Should stop a lot of funny business, but I suspect the teams will have already come up with a way of getting round it