Official 2021 Styrian and Austrian GP thread **SPOILERS**

[paulguitar]

DanielSan said:

HustleRussell said:

FIA hobbling Red Bill now in an ongoing effort to balance the equilibrium

They've been doing that continuously, 'bendy wings that pass all the required FIA tests. Ban them.

Pirelli tyres fail, accuse the teams of messing with pressures and despite no concrete evidence either way, Red Bull look like they're benefitting so increase the pressures anyway...

And now slow down the pit stops.

It would be easier to just save everyone millions and put them in F2 cars if the FIA want everyone to be equal.

And yes I am in a bad mood today

They hobbled Mercedes and now it's Red Bull's turn, perhaps, to try to even it out a bit.

[mw88]

airbusA346 said:

"FIA to slow down Formula 1 pitstops from Hungarian GP"

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/fia-to-slow-dow...

Has Toto been on the phone to the FIA in the last few days

[TheDeuce]

airbusA346 said:

"FIA to slow down Formula 1 pitstops from Hungarian GP"

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/fia-to-slow-dow...

In a couple of recent threads I've questioned whether they're using an unacceptable level of automation! I reckon their wheel guns have no requirement for human input other than being vaguely seated on the nut..

But looking at the regs, automation isn't (so far as is obvious to me) actually ruled out. It says that no part of the car can lifted under power.. but nothing about automation - and all teams guns are automated to an extent anyway.

[mw88]

TheDeuce said:

In a couple of recent threads I've questioned whether they're using an unacceptable level of automation! I reckon their wheel guns have no requirement for human input other than being vaguely seated on the nut..

But looking at the regs, automation isn't (so far as is obvious to me) actually ruled out. It says that no part of the car can lifted under power.. but nothing about automation - and all teams guns are automated to an extent anyway.

Thought that's been the case for years?

Everything is linked together - The wheel guns have sensors, as soon as the required torque is reached they give the green light. If all 4 wheel guns have green, the jack will automatically drop the car and give the green light to the driver.

[TheDeuce]

mw88 said:

TheDeuce said:

In a couple of recent threads I've questioned whether they're using an unacceptable level of automation! I reckon their wheel guns have no requirement for human input other than being vaguely seated on the nut..

But looking at the regs, automation isn't (so far as is obvious to me) actually ruled out. It says that no part of the car can lifted under power.. but nothing about automation - and all teams guns are automated to an extent anyway.

Thought that's been the case for years?

Everything is linked together - The wheel guns have sensors, as soon as the required torque is reached they give the green light. If all 4 wheel guns have green, the jack will automatically drop the car and give the green light to the driver.

Definitely, that's the way it is. My understanding however was that some human input was required for the guns (IE they automatically reverse direction but only after a trigger release and reapplication) as opposed to whatever RB are doing that I can only assume went further. Perhaps actions not initially triggered by the human crew. They're clearly doing something different as they're consistently quicker than Mercedes and it's not as if Mercedes aren't trying...

As in my earlier post, I'm not aware of how the limit of automation is defined - but clearly Mercedes believe it is and that red bull have exceeded it.

[Flooble]

Perhaps Red Bull are just better at Pit Stops than Mercedes?

It would be dangerous to automate the gun starting as proven when Mercedes machined off the nut because the gun wasn’t properly seated. Haven’t seen Red Bull stripping any nuts. So what else can you automate? The jack release when each gun is torqued up I guess?

It would be amusing if it turns out that Red Bull are just better at this too.

[DanielSan]

Flooble said:

Perhaps Red Bull are just better at Pit Stops than Mercedes?

It would be dangerous to automate the gun starting as proven when Mercedes machined off the nut because the gun wasn’t properly seated. Haven’t seen Red Bull stripping any nuts. So what else can you automate? The jack release when each gun is torqued up I guess?

It would be amusing if it turns out that Red Bull are just better at this too.

I think we've had enough years of Red Bull being either the quickest or one of the quickest at pit stops to be able to say that's the case. The only team to march them usually is Williams. It could well be that Mercedes just aren't as good operationally as other teams but car advantage has been enough to overcome it, the only team they've gone head to head against in the hybrid era is Ferrari, and every F1 fan knows how well they snatch defeat from the jaws of victory due to cockups.

[TheDeuce]

Flooble said:

Perhaps Red Bull are just better at Pit Stops than Mercedes?

It would be dangerous to automate the gun starting as proven when Mercedes machined off the nut because the gun wasn’t properly seated. Haven’t seen Red Bull stripping any nuts. So what else can you automate? The jack release when each gun is torqued up I guess?

It would be amusing if it turns out that Red Bull are just better at this too.

Well most of this isn't really known so far as I'm aware.. I think most teams guns automatically reverse but that's ok as the operator initiates that switch by releasing then reapplying the trigger.

It was me that first made the point about the dangers of sensors to detect perfect seating actually - which I still maintain. But that's not to say RB or anyone else might not be using sensors to detect contact with the nut and then the sequence begins... So it's still initially the humans role to line everything up, but once done the the gun does the rest, saving fractions of seconds at each stage.

I've asked three times now if anyone knows if gun automation is illegal so I'm guessing it isn't. But Merc seem to have the ear of the FIA and a change is coming in regardless...

[kimducati]

Seems to me that the FIA think (pretty much know) that the sensors are triggering the next action in the sequence automatically, i.e. 'active' sensors, whereas what the regs say (or at least the latest interpretation of this) is that the sensors should be 'passive' i.e. the sensor triggers the green light and the jack man then has to trigger the 'drop', making the jack man the active party and thereby introducing human error / reaction times.
Or something.
Given that they've introduced a minimum delay time into at least two (from memory) operations during the pitstop, similar to the unspecified delay which has been built into the start lights for a while, they obviously believe that some (or all) teams have been 'gaming' the sequence.
Kim

[rscott]

kimducati said:

Seems to me that the FIA think (pretty much know) that the sensors are triggering the next action in the sequence automatically, i.e. 'active' sensors, whereas what the regs say (or at least the latest interpretation of this) is that the sensors should be 'passive' i.e. the sensor triggers the green light and the jack man then has to trigger the 'drop', making the jack man the active party and thereby introducing human error / reaction times.
Or something.
Given that they've introduced a minimum delay time into at least two (from memory) operations during the pitstop, similar to the unspecified delay which has been built into the start lights for a while, they obviously believe that some (or all) teams have been 'gaming' the sequence.
Kim

Yep, it seems to me that they suspect some teams are doing some clever, but slightly risky, automation of the sensor triggering.
Possibly as simple as "we know it takes 0.3 seconds to tighten the nut, so we'll send the ok signal 0.2 seconds after they start tightening" - so the nut is fully on at about the same time the driver reacts to the go signal.

[Piginapoke]

Groovy new RB diffuser this weekend- serrated edge at the top

[Flooble]

rscott said:

Yep, it seems to me that they suspect some teams are doing some clever, but slightly risky, automation of the sensor triggering.
Possibly as simple as "we know it takes 0.3 seconds to tighten the nut, so we'll send the ok signal 0.2 seconds after they start tightening" - so the nut is fully on at about the same time the driver reacts to the go signal.

Ooh that’s a good point, lateral thinking. There is also a safety case in that case, as it would be easy to release a car with a loose wheel (e.g. the nut was a bit sticky).

[TheDeuce]

Flooble said:

rscott said:

Yep, it seems to me that they suspect some teams are doing some clever, but slightly risky, automation of the sensor triggering.
Possibly as simple as "we know it takes 0.3 seconds to tighten the nut, so we'll send the ok signal 0.2 seconds after they start tightening" - so the nut is fully on at about the same time the driver reacts to the go signal.

Ooh that’s a good point, lateral thinking. There is also a safety case in that case, as it would be easy to release a car with a loose wheel (e.g. the nut was a bit sticky).

Whatever the details of whatever RB are actually doing... If Merc can indeed demonstrate a safety concern then that pretty much forces the FIA to take some sort of action.

Just imagine how different this season could look right now if RB's pit stops had been just fractionally slower on average compared to mercs..

[honda_exige]

Piginapoke said:

Groovy new RB diffuser this weekend- serrated edge at the top

Toto protesting about RBs dangerously sharp new diffuser in 3....2...1.....

[Flooble]

TheDeuce said:

Whatever the details of whatever RB are actually doing... If Merc can indeed demonstrate a safety concern then that pretty much forces the FIA to take some sort of action.

Just imagine how different this season could look right now if RB's pit stops had been just fractionally slower on average compared to mercs..

I’m sure the Mercedes strategy team would still find a way

[Sandpit Steve]

Love this place, tricky little track. Into the 66s laps already.

[TheDeuce]

Flooble said:

TheDeuce said:

Whatever the details of whatever RB are actually doing... If Merc can indeed demonstrate a safety concern then that pretty much forces the FIA to take some sort of action.

Just imagine how different this season could look right now if RB's pit stops had been just fractionally slower on average compared to mercs..

I’m sure the Mercedes strategy team would still find a way

The Mercedes strategy team is a bit rusty - they haven't really had to worry too much since 2014

I actually think in terms of strategy it's not that Merc are bad... More that RB are just excellent in that regard. Probably because they've had to really rely upon great strategy to elevate their performance this era and keep up with Merc and Ferrari most of this era - which they generally have managed despite a sizeable budget deficit.

Edited by TheDeuce on Friday 25th June 10:51

[kiseca]

TheDeuce said:

Flooble said:

TheDeuce said:

Whatever the details of whatever RB are actually doing... If Merc can indeed demonstrate a safety concern then that pretty much forces the FIA to take some sort of action.

Just imagine how different this season could look right now if RB's pit stops had been just fractionally slower on average compared to mercs..

I’m sure the Mercedes strategy team would still find a way

The Mercedes strategy team is a bit rusty - they haven't really had to worry too much since 2014

I actually think in terms of strategy it's not that Merc are bad... More that RB are just excellent in that regard. Probably because they've had to really rely upon great strategy to elevate their performance this era and keep up with Merc and Ferrari most of this era - which they generally have managed despite a sizeable budget deficit.

Edited by TheDeuce on Friday 25th June 10:51

I think their advantage is they are flexible, which means most likely that it's one person with a really sharp, agile mind and a strong memory behind the decisions, compared to a group of analysts going through all the probabilities but slowed down by the need to collaborate all their results and share a range of options to a decision maker who hasn't come to a conclusion on their own. The latter process works, and would probably be right more of the time, but the solitary genius works faster.

[TheDeuce]

kiseca said:

TheDeuce said:

Flooble said:

TheDeuce said:

Whatever the details of whatever RB are actually doing... If Merc can indeed demonstrate a safety concern then that pretty much forces the FIA to take some sort of action.

Just imagine how different this season could look right now if RB's pit stops had been just fractionally slower on average compared to mercs..

I’m sure the Mercedes strategy team would still find a way

The Mercedes strategy team is a bit rusty - they haven't really had to worry too much since 2014

I actually think in terms of strategy it's not that Merc are bad... More that RB are just excellent in that regard. Probably because they've had to really rely upon great strategy to elevate their performance this era and keep up with Merc and Ferrari most of this era - which they generally have managed despite a sizeable budget deficit.

Edited by TheDeuce on Friday 25th June 10:51

I think their advantage is they are flexible, which means most likely that it's one person with a really sharp, agile mind and a strong memory behind the decisions, compared to a group of analysts going through all the probabilities but slowed down by the need to collaborate all their results and share a range of options to a decision maker who hasn't come to a conclusion on their own. The latter process works, and would probably be right more of the time, but the solitary genius works faster.

Committee culture! You could well be right.

[Sandpit Steve]

TheDeuce said:

The Mercedes strategy team is a bit rusty - they haven't really had to worry too much since 2014

I actually think in terms of strategy it's not that Merc are bad... More that RB are just excellent in that regard. Probably because they've had to really rely upon great strategy to elevate their performance this era and keep up with Merc and Ferrari most of this era - which they generally have managed despite a sizeable budget deficit.

Mercedes are also good, have had many of their own race strategy wins over the years. They got it wrong last weekend though.