Jamie Chadwick - First competitive female driver in F1?
Discussion
LukeBrown66 said:
AS I say there is no arguing with an ape, who thinks that the only reason women can't compete is physical. If that is in fact your opinion, or is it that you simply do now want them to get to the top?
come back with some ideas as to why you think this will NEVER happen?
I presume you have read all of the reasoning on this thread explaining exactly why it is highly unlikely to happen? To repeat the general consensus, no its not ONLY because of the physical but also because of the inherit mental differences along with the mental strain caused by the physical differences. come back with some ideas as to why you think this will NEVER happen?
I predict your response of saying that F1 requires no more physical strength than a woman can handle. Again you will miss the point.
I imagine most apes would have the temerity to understand (especially when it has been repeatedly reasoned with them by fellow apes) as to why female apes would get their asses handed to them in any sanctioned ape motorsport events, so please don't drag apes down to your level.
P.S. Better put £20 aside for that pint you will owe DBSv8 in 10 years.
I haven’t read the thread in recent times as it appears to be a little heavy on the bickering…
Anyway
Thoughts on her going to Indycar next year?
She was testing them last week and dropped a big hint in the after race show today (F1 coverage).
Would put her up against an all male driver line up in identical cars…
Might shut up a few folks on this thread (one way or another).
Anyway
Thoughts on her going to Indycar next year?
She was testing them last week and dropped a big hint in the after race show today (F1 coverage).
Would put her up against an all male driver line up in identical cars…
Might shut up a few folks on this thread (one way or another).
So now we think a woman cannot deal with the mental stress of driving an F1 car aswell, does anyone have proof of this?
Again I can guess that if they can cope with the far more difficult mental and physical issues surrounding flying a fighter jet i see no reason at all why they could not cope talent notwithstanding, with the really rather simple mental issues surrounding driving a car round a track.
IN a plane you are dealing with life and death, opponents, radio, radar, tracking, and in most cases a person with you who you are also basically responsible for and in war time someone is trying to kill you.
Please do not offend anyone in that position by saying driving a car round a track is any more physically and mentally taxing than that.
I agree that the two combined might force most women drivers of the time into a slower pace or out of the sport, but I fail to understand how mental stress is really any sort of major factor in racing a car unless you are out of form.
it is relatively rare in F1 drivers, the only i can really recall having any real mental issue are Fisichella at times, Zanardi in his Williams days, Frentzen in his Williams days.
Again I can guess that if they can cope with the far more difficult mental and physical issues surrounding flying a fighter jet i see no reason at all why they could not cope talent notwithstanding, with the really rather simple mental issues surrounding driving a car round a track.
IN a plane you are dealing with life and death, opponents, radio, radar, tracking, and in most cases a person with you who you are also basically responsible for and in war time someone is trying to kill you.
Please do not offend anyone in that position by saying driving a car round a track is any more physically and mentally taxing than that.
I agree that the two combined might force most women drivers of the time into a slower pace or out of the sport, but I fail to understand how mental stress is really any sort of major factor in racing a car unless you are out of form.
it is relatively rare in F1 drivers, the only i can really recall having any real mental issue are Fisichella at times, Zanardi in his Williams days, Frentzen in his Williams days.
I really don’t understand the continued comparison with a few female fighter pilots. They may occasionally sustain higher peak g loads, in a different direction, with a g suit and air, but it is not the constant physical battle an F1 car is. If you were comparing to being in a dogfight for 2 hours you may have a point, does this ever happen though?
Racing on the limit, in cars that fast, against serious competitors is mentally taxing. The margins are much tighter than a fighter jet, you have to be accurate to within a few feet for every braking point, every apex, every measured throttle input, catch every slide all within a few centimetres of competitors . On top of that adjusting to track and weather conditions, accounting for tyre wear, fuel load, competitors, pit stops, chatting on the radio, managing DRS, Kers, the million settings on the steering wheel, race strategy. There is still the risk of serious injury or death too should you mess up, and 20 other competitors and thousands of spectators you could harm if you really get it wrong.
Remember too that pilots will often have a co pilot doing a lot of the heavy mental lifting too and except for in a dogfight they are likely not operating at the limits of themselves or the plane so it is much easier for a man or woman to do it.
Obviously pilots deal with stressful situations but it is a different kind of stress.
Racing on the limit, in cars that fast, against serious competitors is mentally taxing. The margins are much tighter than a fighter jet, you have to be accurate to within a few feet for every braking point, every apex, every measured throttle input, catch every slide all within a few centimetres of competitors . On top of that adjusting to track and weather conditions, accounting for tyre wear, fuel load, competitors, pit stops, chatting on the radio, managing DRS, Kers, the million settings on the steering wheel, race strategy. There is still the risk of serious injury or death too should you mess up, and 20 other competitors and thousands of spectators you could harm if you really get it wrong.
Remember too that pilots will often have a co pilot doing a lot of the heavy mental lifting too and except for in a dogfight they are likely not operating at the limits of themselves or the plane so it is much easier for a man or woman to do it.
Obviously pilots deal with stressful situations but it is a different kind of stress.
RB Will said:
I really don’t understand the continued comparison with a few female fighter pilots. They may occasionally sustain higher peak g loads, in a different direction, with a g suit and air, but it is not the constant physical battle an F1 car is. If you were comparing to being in a dogfight for 2 hours you may have a point, does this ever happen though?
Racing on the limit, in cars that fast, against serious competitors is mentally taxing. The margins are much tighter than a fighter jet, you have to be accurate to within a few feet for every braking point, every apex, every measured throttle input, catch every slide all within a few centimetres of competitors . On top of that adjusting to track and weather conditions, accounting for tyre wear, fuel load, competitors, pit stops, chatting on the radio, managing DRS, Kers, the million settings on the steering wheel, race strategy. There is still the risk of serious injury or death too should you mess up, and 20 other competitors and thousands of spectators you could harm if you really get it wrong.
Remember too that pilots will often have a co pilot doing a lot of the heavy mental lifting too and except for in a dogfight they are likely not operating at the limits of themselves or the plane so it is much easier for a man or woman to do it.
Obviously pilots deal with stressful situations but it is a different kind of stress.
It's just Luke endlessly repeating himself..Racing on the limit, in cars that fast, against serious competitors is mentally taxing. The margins are much tighter than a fighter jet, you have to be accurate to within a few feet for every braking point, every apex, every measured throttle input, catch every slide all within a few centimetres of competitors . On top of that adjusting to track and weather conditions, accounting for tyre wear, fuel load, competitors, pit stops, chatting on the radio, managing DRS, Kers, the million settings on the steering wheel, race strategy. There is still the risk of serious injury or death too should you mess up, and 20 other competitors and thousands of spectators you could harm if you really get it wrong.
Remember too that pilots will often have a co pilot doing a lot of the heavy mental lifting too and except for in a dogfight they are likely not operating at the limits of themselves or the plane so it is much easier for a man or woman to do it.
Obviously pilots deal with stressful situations but it is a different kind of stress.
The career of virtually all fighter pilots these days is one of detached and clinical contribution to war, they're not 'in it'. Frankly you're far more likely to come to harm taking part in motorsport, because you're actually there to do battle.
A fighter jet and pilot is remote weapon and mostly these days serves as a deterrent, or on occasion a weapon to do targeted damage and be well clear before there's any sort of response.
There's no comparison other than that both operators are required to maintain a high level of fitness. In a jet, you need that fitness to do your job but fitness level doesn't determine how effective you are, it just has to be 'enough'. In F1 these days, finding the highest level of fitness can buy a performance advantage over another driver - simply because you're not fighting so hard to drive and can be more focussed on the art of driving.
Of course there is a comparison, read the post not the username for Gods sake. I am not comparing say teaching with driving or flying, they are broadly similar.
Both jobs require a level of physical and mental fitness. I would say driving requires more fitness, and less mental ability, a lot of it is done for you and down to innate talent at the top level, flying requires infinitely more mental toughness and intelligence. And a very particular physical ability much like an F1 driver. But a pilot can be trained, unlike a top driver yet a fabulous pilot will also have innate ability and skill, see how similar they are?
Of course pilots are not "in" combat but they have to be ready and trained for it as it is much, much harder than driving a bloody car.
Flying a plane requires instinct aswell as talent, but it can be trained, I would say being a very good racer is largely intuitive and God given, hence the point that we just have not seen that talent in a female racing driver yet.
But to say there is hardly any comparison is disparaging to drivers and pilots to be honest, and shows a lack of intelligence and understanding of the subject.
I would say there is no comparison between working on a checkout or being a butcher to being a race driver. But even driving a truck has a comparison between flying and driving a race car.
I am not saying they are the same, but they do have a lot of broad similarities in roles. But one has far more responsibility, to others and his nav, the other is usually a petulant kid who has been told he is a God all his life. That maybe is where you get confused
Both jobs require a level of physical and mental fitness. I would say driving requires more fitness, and less mental ability, a lot of it is done for you and down to innate talent at the top level, flying requires infinitely more mental toughness and intelligence. And a very particular physical ability much like an F1 driver. But a pilot can be trained, unlike a top driver yet a fabulous pilot will also have innate ability and skill, see how similar they are?
Of course pilots are not "in" combat but they have to be ready and trained for it as it is much, much harder than driving a bloody car.
Flying a plane requires instinct aswell as talent, but it can be trained, I would say being a very good racer is largely intuitive and God given, hence the point that we just have not seen that talent in a female racing driver yet.
But to say there is hardly any comparison is disparaging to drivers and pilots to be honest, and shows a lack of intelligence and understanding of the subject.
I would say there is no comparison between working on a checkout or being a butcher to being a race driver. But even driving a truck has a comparison between flying and driving a race car.
I am not saying they are the same, but they do have a lot of broad similarities in roles. But one has far more responsibility, to others and his nav, the other is usually a petulant kid who has been told he is a God all his life. That maybe is where you get confused
Edited by LukeBrown66 on Tuesday 1st November 08:40
Surely a lot of F1 driving is muscle memory. I cannot remember who said it but will always remember:
A club racer/amateur will practice until they get it right, an F1 driver will practice until they cannot get it wrong. The only times they will vary greatly from that are:
1) When conditions are changing,
2) They are fighting for a position.
A club racer/amateur will practice until they get it right, an F1 driver will practice until they cannot get it wrong. The only times they will vary greatly from that are:
1) When conditions are changing,
2) They are fighting for a position.
MustangGT said:
Surely a lot of F1 driving is muscle memory. I cannot remember who said it but will always remember:
A club racer/amateur will practice until they get it right, an F1 driver will practice until they cannot get it wrong. The only times they will vary greatly from that are:
1) When conditions are changing,
2) They are fighting for a position.
I can’t remember the source either but I’ve heard the gist of that quote as more general terms so maybe someone adapted it to racing.A club racer/amateur will practice until they get it right, an F1 driver will practice until they cannot get it wrong. The only times they will vary greatly from that are:
1) When conditions are changing,
2) They are fighting for a position.
I’ve heard it as something like “an amateur practices until they get it right, a master practices until they dont get it wrong.
LukeBrown66 said:
Of course there is a comparison, read the post not the username for Gods sake. I am not comparing say teaching with driving or flying, they are broadly similar.
Both jobs require a level of physical and mental fitness. I would say driving requires more fitness, and less mental ability, a lot of it is done for you and down to innate talent at the top level, flying requires infinitely more mental toughness and intelligence. And a very particular physical ability much like an F1 driver. But a pilot can be trained, unlike a top driver yet a fabulous pilot will also have innate ability and skill, see how similar they are?
Of course pilots are not "in" combat but they have to be ready and trained for it as it is much, much harder than driving a bloody car.
Flying a plane requires instinct aswell as talent, but it can be trained, I would say being a very good racer is largely intuitive and God given, hence the point that we just have not seen that talent in a female racing driver yet.
But to say there is hardly any comparison is disparaging to drivers and pilots to be honest, and shows a lack of intelligence and understanding of the subject.
I would say there is no comparison between working on a checkout or being a butcher to being a race driver. But even driving a truck has a comparison between flying and driving a race car.
I am not saying they are the same, but they do have a lot of broad similarities in roles. But one has far more responsibility, to others and his nav, the other is usually a petulant kid who has been told he is a God all his life. That maybe is where you get confused
I’m confused because your logic isn’t making much sense to me and your explanations are not doing anything to help it. I am reading the content and not the user name, I’ve no idea who you are, you could be a fighter pilot or a F2 driver for all I know but your argument still doesn’t make sense to me.Both jobs require a level of physical and mental fitness. I would say driving requires more fitness, and less mental ability, a lot of it is done for you and down to innate talent at the top level, flying requires infinitely more mental toughness and intelligence. And a very particular physical ability much like an F1 driver. But a pilot can be trained, unlike a top driver yet a fabulous pilot will also have innate ability and skill, see how similar they are?
Of course pilots are not "in" combat but they have to be ready and trained for it as it is much, much harder than driving a bloody car.
Flying a plane requires instinct aswell as talent, but it can be trained, I would say being a very good racer is largely intuitive and God given, hence the point that we just have not seen that talent in a female racing driver yet.
But to say there is hardly any comparison is disparaging to drivers and pilots to be honest, and shows a lack of intelligence and understanding of the subject.
I would say there is no comparison between working on a checkout or being a butcher to being a race driver. But even driving a truck has a comparison between flying and driving a race car.
I am not saying they are the same, but they do have a lot of broad similarities in roles. But one has far more responsibility, to others and his nav, the other is usually a petulant kid who has been told he is a God all his life. That maybe is where you get confused
Edited by LukeBrown66 on Tuesday 1st November 08:40
After a quick bit of Googling it seems the fighter pilot / F1 driver comparison has been questioned before. He is a response from a fighter pilot and engineer
“From a strength and conditioning perspective there is no doubt the Formula 1 driver is much more fit than the average fighter pilot.”
He also says worst case even doing high effort stuff like dogfighting will be over in 2 mins or less.
Fighter pilot and F1 driver is such a stupid comparison.
About the only thing they experice the same is G.
F1 drivers are constantly at their limit for upto 2 hours in competition.
Fighter pilots these days drop bombs, gone are the days of dogfights like WW2.
Think some people need to realise topgun is a film.
And even if they did dogfight that would probably be over in 5 mins.
And how many times do male pilots compete against women and what's the result.
Some people on here just have an agenda if chadwick was any good they would be falling over themselves to give her a seat but all the teams know that if they did she would be found out and then a certain element wouldn't be able to push their agenda again.
About the only thing they experice the same is G.
F1 drivers are constantly at their limit for upto 2 hours in competition.
Fighter pilots these days drop bombs, gone are the days of dogfights like WW2.
Think some people need to realise topgun is a film.
And even if they did dogfight that would probably be over in 5 mins.
And how many times do male pilots compete against women and what's the result.
Some people on here just have an agenda if chadwick was any good they would be falling over themselves to give her a seat but all the teams know that if they did she would be found out and then a certain element wouldn't be able to push their agenda again.
SmoothCriminal said:
Fighter pilot and F1 driver is such a stupid comparison.
About the only thing they experice the same is G.
F1 drivers are constantly at their limit for upto 2 hours in competition.
Fighter pilots these days drop bombs, gone are the days of dogfights like WW2.
Think some people need to realise topgun is a film.
And even if they did dogfight that would probably be over in 5 mins.
And how many times do male pilots compete against women and what's the result.
Some people on here just have an agenda if chadwick was any good they would be falling over themselves to give her a seat but all the teams know that if they did she would be found out and then a certain element wouldn't be able to push their agenda again.
Whilst I agree with you on the consistant strains vs short time intense strains, to say Fighter pilots these days just drop bombs is a little harsh. About the only thing they experice the same is G.
F1 drivers are constantly at their limit for upto 2 hours in competition.
Fighter pilots these days drop bombs, gone are the days of dogfights like WW2.
Think some people need to realise topgun is a film.
And even if they did dogfight that would probably be over in 5 mins.
And how many times do male pilots compete against women and what's the result.
Some people on here just have an agenda if chadwick was any good they would be falling over themselves to give her a seat but all the teams know that if they did she would be found out and then a certain element wouldn't be able to push their agenda again.
This does not looks easy or fun also with zero tyre barrier to bounce off of.
https://youtu.be/2uh4yMAx2UA?t=183
I have repeatedly said there are no female drivers at the moment worthy of an F1 seat, saying no female can ever make it to f1 is a very different argument.
And again, the pilot thing is simply about the tasks involved, I have ALSO agreed on multiple occasions that a pilot does not need to be as fit, but they do have to do more mentally, making the comparisons at least vial in that they are both high pressure environments where one person has a direct input into what is going on, and they both require a lot of talent, co-ordination, reflexes, reactions and training.
In my eyes being a driver is more talent based, you bring that with you whereas a pilot can essentially be trained, but as in driving, a guy who does 1000 laps is not necessarily going be better than Max in the same way that a pilot who has done a lot of hours is not going to be better in a combat situation than every pilot, he or she will just know the limits of the plane intimately, which is also part of combat.
This is simply to prove that with the right talent any gender can be quick enough in an F1 car, it is not based on fitness alone as some seem to think or even, sadly believe.
And again, the pilot thing is simply about the tasks involved, I have ALSO agreed on multiple occasions that a pilot does not need to be as fit, but they do have to do more mentally, making the comparisons at least vial in that they are both high pressure environments where one person has a direct input into what is going on, and they both require a lot of talent, co-ordination, reflexes, reactions and training.
In my eyes being a driver is more talent based, you bring that with you whereas a pilot can essentially be trained, but as in driving, a guy who does 1000 laps is not necessarily going be better than Max in the same way that a pilot who has done a lot of hours is not going to be better in a combat situation than every pilot, he or she will just know the limits of the plane intimately, which is also part of combat.
This is simply to prove that with the right talent any gender can be quick enough in an F1 car, it is not based on fitness alone as some seem to think or even, sadly believe.
LukeBrown66 said:
I have repeatedly said there are no female drivers at the moment worthy of an F1 seat, saying no female can ever make it to f1 is a very different argument.
And again, the pilot thing is simply about the tasks involved, I have ALSO agreed on multiple occasions that a pilot does not need to be as fit, but they do have to do more mentally, making the comparisons at least vial in that they are both high pressure environments where one person has a direct input into what is going on, and they both require a lot of talent, co-ordination, reflexes, reactions and training.
In my eyes being a driver is more talent based, you bring that with you whereas a pilot can essentially be trained, but as in driving, a guy who does 1000 laps is not necessarily going be better than Max in the same way that a pilot who has done a lot of hours is not going to be better in a combat situation than every pilot, he or she will just know the limits of the plane intimately, which is also part of combat.
This is simply to prove that with the right talent any gender can be quick enough in an F1 car, it is not based on fitness alone as some seem to think or even, sadly believe.
Very much this! And again, the pilot thing is simply about the tasks involved, I have ALSO agreed on multiple occasions that a pilot does not need to be as fit, but they do have to do more mentally, making the comparisons at least vial in that they are both high pressure environments where one person has a direct input into what is going on, and they both require a lot of talent, co-ordination, reflexes, reactions and training.
In my eyes being a driver is more talent based, you bring that with you whereas a pilot can essentially be trained, but as in driving, a guy who does 1000 laps is not necessarily going be better than Max in the same way that a pilot who has done a lot of hours is not going to be better in a combat situation than every pilot, he or she will just know the limits of the plane intimately, which is also part of combat.
This is simply to prove that with the right talent any gender can be quick enough in an F1 car, it is not based on fitness alone as some seem to think or even, sadly believe.
Over lockdown I spent a fairly large chunk of time on some pretty hardcore combat flight simulators and pretty sure I could get in an F16 cockpit, start it up, taxi and take off as well as use most of the weapon systems with more hours I am sure I'd get better and most of it becomes insticts and muscle memory.
On the other hand I could spend 10000's of hours driving round silverstone and doubt I'd get anywhere near even the likes of Latfi in lap time.
LukeBrown66 said:
but I fail to understand how mental stress is really any sort of major factor in racing a car unless you are out of form.
it is relatively rare in F1 drivers, the only i can really recall having any real mental issue are Fisichella at times, Zanardi in his Williams days, Frentzen in his Williams days.
Did you pick 3 names out of a hat as I don't recall any of those 3 having "real mental issues" during their careers in F1 .it is relatively rare in F1 drivers, the only i can really recall having any real mental issue are Fisichella at times, Zanardi in his Williams days, Frentzen in his Williams days.
I picked those guys because they have been noted as having very up and down form, Zanardi was massively quick in f1 initially but his time at Williams was abysmal, yet his team mate was fine, that can only be a mental thing, Fisi was known for up and down form and at times being unable to push, this must also be mental as he had speed as proven numerous times. Form is purely linked to mental issues unless there is a physical ailment. The very best guys never have a dip in form. Imagine a woman being THAT good that is the type of person we are looking at here, not just an average race drover like Chadwick
As for the differences between pilots and driving, the comparison is not 100% but the two things bear skills in common. I keep repeating this but people keep thinking I am comparing them like for like, I am not, I am merely pointing it out to say that there are hundreds of female fighter pilots in the world, who have proved that a job perhaps originally thought only possible for men to do is easily performed by women. And tot he same level.
Meaning that there are no restrictions other than talent as to why a female cannot make it to the very top. Or perhaps money, but I think in reality of a woman came in, blitzed F3, GP3 and GP2 she would not be lacing in funding to get to the top, as no driver who ahs done that ever has really.
As for the differences between pilots and driving, the comparison is not 100% but the two things bear skills in common. I keep repeating this but people keep thinking I am comparing them like for like, I am not, I am merely pointing it out to say that there are hundreds of female fighter pilots in the world, who have proved that a job perhaps originally thought only possible for men to do is easily performed by women. And tot he same level.
Meaning that there are no restrictions other than talent as to why a female cannot make it to the very top. Or perhaps money, but I think in reality of a woman came in, blitzed F3, GP3 and GP2 she would not be lacing in funding to get to the top, as no driver who ahs done that ever has really.
MustangGT said:
Surely a lot of F1 driving is muscle memory. I cannot remember who said it but will always remember:
A club racer/amateur will practice until they get it right, an F1 driver will practice until they cannot get it wrong. The only times they will vary greatly from that are:
1) When conditions are changing,
2) They are fighting for a position.
Even then they will have dozens of scenarios in their head for both those scenarios, be working out the probability of each occurring and then implementing their mitigation. My MSc dissertation was titled “Measuring the Situational Awareness of RLC Convoy Commanders in a synthetic virtual environment” A club racer/amateur will practice until they get it right, an F1 driver will practice until they cannot get it wrong. The only times they will vary greatly from that are:
1) When conditions are changing,
2) They are fighting for a position.
DBSV8 said:
paulguitar said:
LukeBrown66 said:
The very best guys never have a dip in form.
That's not true at all.Seb Vettel ?
Damon Hill ?
James Hunt ?
Jaques Villeneuve ?
all race winners and all have had dips in form sometime in their career
MustangGT said:
DBSV8 said:
paulguitar said:
LukeBrown66 said:
The very best guys never have a dip in form.
That's not true at all.Seb Vettel ?
Damon Hill ?
James Hunt ?
Jaques Villeneuve ?
all race winners and all have had dips in form sometime in their career
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