Mercedes' recent straight line speed. How? Legal?
Discussion
jsf said:
Byker28i said:
Piginapoke said:
HustleRussell said:
Where was this thread when Red Bull had its engines strategically turned up to 11 at its home races in Austria / Styria and was consequently untouchable on the straights for those two weekends? I certainly don't remember anybody casting aspersions around the 'sporting fairness' of that?
That Red Bull were faster in Sector 2 gives you half of the reason why Mercedes appeared to enjoy a straight line advantage. Interlagos simply wasn't the 'Red Bull circuit' that people were expecting, at least not in the configuration that Mercedes and Red Bull eventually competed in.
Not sure what you mean. The only RB engine changes have been as a result of accident damage (by Hamilton and Bottas ironically). The issue here is that Merc has introduced an engine with a lifespan of only 4 races, not 8 and Honda hasn't done this.That Red Bull were faster in Sector 2 gives you half of the reason why Mercedes appeared to enjoy a straight line advantage. Interlagos simply wasn't the 'Red Bull circuit' that people were expecting, at least not in the configuration that Mercedes and Red Bull eventually competed in.
https://www.f1-fansite.com/2021-f1-season/2021-use...
jsf said:
Also, Mercedes have not introduced an engine with a lifespan of 4 instead of 8, it's the same engine, which is homologated. How turned up they run that will depend on how long it has to last. If you introduce a new PU for the last race, you will turn it up to a higher power output than if you run it for 8 races, or 4, or 2.
Toto hasn't ruled out another engine yet, Red Bull are said to be considering a new one for Max because they think it was worth a couple of tenths on it's own.Remember Lewis has 5 engines in the pool to juggle now, over Max's 4, although Max has many more components in his pool.
Piginapoke said:
TheDeuce said:
HustleRussell said:
Where was this thread when Red Bull had its engines strategically turned up to 11 at its home races in Austria / Styria and was consequently untouchable on the straights for those two weekends? I certainly don't remember anybody casting aspersions around the 'sporting fairness' of that?
Just imagine the upset if Lewis wins this season AND Mercedes prove to have built the best car for 2021 and set off on another multi year wining streak... Some people on here might actually explode.
It probably won't happen...
Piginapoke said:
TheDeuce said:
HustleRussell said:
Where was this thread when Red Bull had its engines strategically turned up to 11 at its home races in Austria / Styria and was consequently untouchable on the straights for those two weekends? I certainly don't remember anybody casting aspersions around the 'sporting fairness' of that?
Just imagine the upset if Lewis wins this season AND Mercedes prove to have built the best car for 2021 and set off on another multi year wining streak... Some people on here might actually explode.
HustleRussell said:
Piginapoke said:
TheDeuce said:
HustleRussell said:
Where was this thread when Red Bull had its engines strategically turned up to 11 at its home races in Austria / Styria and was consequently untouchable on the straights for those two weekends? I certainly don't remember anybody casting aspersions around the 'sporting fairness' of that?
Just imagine the upset if Lewis wins this season AND Mercedes prove to have built the best car for 2021 and set off on another multi year wining streak... Some people on here might actually explode.I've never understood the 'Mercedes win too much' perspective either. So long as they make the best car, driven by an awesome driver, they should win - I'd rather they win 10 times in a row than circumstances somehow contrive to make a less effective team win simply for the sake of variety.
HustleRussell said:
I honestly would've taken the same attitude if you'd asked me that question at the beginning of the season, but the conduct of Red Bull and Verstappen vs. Mercedes and Hamilton and the way the season has played out has me firmly on team LH for the first time after all of these years. It actually feels good!
I came into this season hoping for a close fight with a slight preference for seeing Redbull ultimately taking the titles, but with Redbull, Max and, even worse, the FIA behaving so disgracefully I'm now 100% behind Mercedes. I will struggle to ever support Redbull again after this season. Frankly I hope they screw something up and end up fighting with Haas at the back of the grid next year (although I'd feel very sorry for Perez if that happened!). Edited by kambites on Tuesday 16th November 19:26
I think the "problem" (or at least the initial problem) is the penalty for a 4th ICE is 10 grid places but a 5th (and 6th?) ICE is only 5 places, whereas, as the Sky commentators (think it was Jenson Button in Texas?) pointed out, it should be the other way around. A 5th and 6th ICE should incur a greater penalty than 4th.
So, as has been mentioned, Lewis (and Max) could keep taking new engines, turn them up and start from 6th/7th each race.
Perhaps seconds/minutes should be added to their finish time (instead of dropping down grid places).
So, as has been mentioned, Lewis (and Max) could keep taking new engines, turn them up and start from 6th/7th each race.
Perhaps seconds/minutes should be added to their finish time (instead of dropping down grid places).
The irony being that those regulations (10 places for first engine, 5 for 2nd and onwards) were brought it in make the situation for Honda less ridiculous. When they were first developing their F1 engines they changed it multiple times a year and ended up with 100+place grid penalties. The idea behind the 10 for a first changed, 5 for a second was that ‘established’ manufacturers would be discouraged from using more than the allocation, but that does developing new engines would be able to change more frequently without such heavy penalty.
jsf said:
There is no such thing as spirit of the rules. There are rules and if you work within them, there is nothing more to say.
Of course there is - DAS? Strictly it was legal at time of development, but it was banned in-part to stop other teams developing their own versions, I read that as not being within the spirit of the rules, so was outlawed.There are rules, you work within them as you said - but it does not stop people interoperating the rules in a way to suit them. It's not always a binary decision, F1 has proven that over and over again.
Something clever is developed and is then banned for the following season for the sake of the sport and the other teams.
FYI - I'm a Ferrari fan - I am not bashing Mercedes, nor am I too bothered who picks up the championships.
AllyBassman said:
Of course there is - DAS? Strictly it was legal at time of development, but it was banned in-part to stop other teams developing their own versions, I read that as not being within the spirit of the rules, so was outlawed.
There are rules, you work within them as you said - but it does not stop people interoperating the rules in a way to suit them. It's not always a binary decision, F1 has proven that over and over again.
Something clever is developed and is then banned for the following season for the sake of the sport and the other teams.
FYI - I'm a Ferrari fan - I am not bashing Mercedes, nor am I too bothered who picks up the championships.
I see your point, but DAS is a bad example. There are rules, you work within them as you said - but it does not stop people interoperating the rules in a way to suit them. It's not always a binary decision, F1 has proven that over and over again.
Something clever is developed and is then banned for the following season for the sake of the sport and the other teams.
FYI - I'm a Ferrari fan - I am not bashing Mercedes, nor am I too bothered who picks up the championships.
It was ruled legal and Mercedes were allowed to use it - ergo Mercedes were within the rules.
It was deemed to not be in the interests of the sport to pursue, so was banned from the following season.
Whether it was in the 'spirit of the rules' or not is moot - it was legal one year and not the next so Mercedes applied it accordingly.
Something more appropriate may be X wings. Technically legal, but banned pretty much immediately for not being in the spirit of the rules..
DanielSan said:
thegreenhell said:
Which is something the rules allow for. The price is a grid penalty, which they took. There's nothing stopping Honda from doing the same if it's advantageous to do so.
The bizarre thing about that penalty system is that the penalty decreases after so many engines are used, surely it should increase really to stop a team using that loophole? If you can start 10th and win, by using a turned-up 4-race engine rather than a standard-tune 8-race engine, then teams are going to keep doing just that.
If Lewis uses an old one on Fridays for the remaining three events, that new engine will only need to go around 1,600km, instead of the 5,000-6,000km one would expect, if using only three for the whole season.
So the elephant In The room that one poster mentioned earlier.
Mercedes were far from the fastest car..
Ferrari had a much higher top speed, gasly in a Honda powered car was over 20kmh faster than verstappen
Can all the Red Bull apologists please just put their hands up and admit that they made an error on the set up of the car and left it way to draggy
Mercedes were far from the fastest car..
Ferrari had a much higher top speed, gasly in a Honda powered car was over 20kmh faster than verstappen
Can all the Red Bull apologists please just put their hands up and admit that they made an error on the set up of the car and left it way to draggy
interesting article regarding possible merc damper innovations which may give speed boost
https://www.gpblog.com/en/news/99086/could-this-be...
https://www.gpblog.com/en/news/99086/could-this-be...
Byker28i said:
We know from Horner that McLaren went with their skinny Monnoco wing to assist overtaking on the long straights with DRS, add in the new engine and thats it - nothing else
Do you mean Mercedes? And you have missed the point... Monaco wing is the opposite of skinny as they need max downforce - it's not a top speed circuit.Muzzer79 said:
AllyBassman said:
Of course there is - DAS? Strictly it was legal at time of development, but it was banned in-part to stop other teams developing their own versions, I read that as not being within the spirit of the rules, so was outlawed.
There are rules, you work within them as you said - but it does not stop people interoperating the rules in a way to suit them. It's not always a binary decision, F1 has proven that over and over again.
Something clever is developed and is then banned for the following season for the sake of the sport and the other teams.
FYI - I'm a Ferrari fan - I am not bashing Mercedes, nor am I too bothered who picks up the championships.
I see your point, but DAS is a bad example. There are rules, you work within them as you said - but it does not stop people interoperating the rules in a way to suit them. It's not always a binary decision, F1 has proven that over and over again.
Something clever is developed and is then banned for the following season for the sake of the sport and the other teams.
FYI - I'm a Ferrari fan - I am not bashing Mercedes, nor am I too bothered who picks up the championships.
It was ruled legal and Mercedes were allowed to use it - ergo Mercedes were within the rules.
It was deemed to not be in the interests of the sport to pursue, so was banned from the following season.
Whether it was in the 'spirit of the rules' or not is moot - it was legal one year and not the next so Mercedes applied it accordingly.
Something more appropriate may be X wings. Technically legal, but banned pretty much immediately for not being in the spirit of the rules..
DAS was legal and couldn't be ordered to be removed until the rules were changed.
X-wings were banned using the rule that allowed the FIA to make changes on safety grounds, using that as the reason allowed the FIA to mandate changes without the teams agreement.
In both cases the parts were legal until they were not, there is no such thing as spirit of the rules.
The more interesting aspect of the rules is where it's impossible to police a rule, such as the one where bodywork flexes. For those you have rules for specification and also technical directives for testing the compliance. This weekend we saw that used with the Mercedes rear wing drs gap, it passed the rules requirement but not the TD test, so was deemed illegal.
The argument there from Mercedes was that they were not allowed to repair the part or even check it, as is the normal procedure. That leaves the FIA open to accusations of rigging the outcome.
But again, no spirit of the rules are involved, the part failed the test so was not legal when tested.
Byker28i said:
We know from Horner that McLaren went with their skinny Monnoco wing to assist overtaking on the long straights with DRS, add in the new engine and thats it - nothing else
You've posted this mistake twice now, on this and the Brazil thread. The Monaco wing is NOT skinny - it's the precise opposite. A Monza wing would be skinny because that is low downforce. A Monaco wing is high downforce because it's a low speed circuit so you need to generate as much downforce as you can from the wing.
Interlagos has two sectors which are "fast" and one sector which is "slow", so the car setup (wing choice amongst other things) is a compromise between high downforce and low downforce, and where on that scale a team chooses to hang its hat depends on a number of factors.
What Mercedes appear to have done, is take an engine penalty so that they can install an ICE with the wick turned up as it only has to last 4 races which in turn allowed them to run a Monaco-esque HIGH downforce aero configuration in Brazil. So they are more draggy in the high speed sections but the penalty of that drag is minimized by having more power from the engine. And then in the twisty/technical sector 2 they have the high downforce aero they need. So whilst they are not smashing overall speed trap records, their average speed over the lap as a whole is right up there.
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