What separates the excellent from the elite?
Discussion
hot metal said:
Drivers have developed along with the cars over the decades, as expected.
Wonder who would win an arm wrestling competition, Fangio or Hamilton ??
The petrol fumes alone would knock out most of today's snowflakes over race distance.Wonder who would win an arm wrestling competition, Fangio or Hamilton ??
Nuvolari would do both of 'em in an arm wrestle.
Bo_apex said:
hot metal said:
Drivers have developed along with the cars over the decades, as expected.
Wonder who would win an arm wrestling competition, Fangio or Hamilton ??
The petrol fumes alone would knock out most of today's snowflakes over race distance.Wonder who would win an arm wrestling competition, Fangio or Hamilton ??
Nuvolari would do both of 'em in an arm wrestle.
Muzzer79 said:
Piginapoke said:
LukeBrown66 said:
The elite manage to make what they do seem effortless and achieve it with little controversy.;
In my mind, Fangio, Ascari, Clark, Stewart, Prost, Lewis make winning easy.
Others get there through circumstance and raw talent like, vettel, Alonso, Rosberg, Piquet, Lauda, Emmo as their careers pitch a little up and down.
Finally there are the bullies like Hunt, Senna, Schumacher, maybe black Jack who through sheer will achieve their goals in whatever way they can.
I admire them all but the first group are the elite in my mind.
Worth pointing out that Prost was destroyed by Senna in their 2 years together.In my mind, Fangio, Ascari, Clark, Stewart, Prost, Lewis make winning easy.
Others get there through circumstance and raw talent like, vettel, Alonso, Rosberg, Piquet, Lauda, Emmo as their careers pitch a little up and down.
Finally there are the bullies like Hunt, Senna, Schumacher, maybe black Jack who through sheer will achieve their goals in whatever way they can.
I admire them all but the first group are the elite in my mind.
I ask because you can't be referring to 1988/1989, because that would be............wrong.
1988
Senna race wins 8
Senna podiums 11
Prost race wins 7
Prost podiums 14
WDC Senna
Prost was first or second in every race apart from the British GP, where he retired with handling problems and the Italian GP, where his engine failed.
1989
Senna race wins 6
Senna podiums 7
Prost race wins 4
Prost podiums 11
WDC Prost
Edited by Muzzer79 on Wednesday 24th November 10:17
cgt2 said:
MustangGT said:
Seems incredible to think that Alain with 51 wins, lying 4th in the all time table, only has half the number of wins that Lewis has managed.
Far fewer races then, 16 a seasonAlain 51 from 202 = 25.2%
Lewis 102 from 286 = 35.6%
Michael 91 from 308 = 29.5%
Ayrton 42 from 162 = 25.3%
Fernando 32 from 334 = 9.6%
Sebastian 53 from 278 = 19.1%
Max 19 from 139 = 13.7%
No point going further back, the change in F1 from Ascari/Nuvolari/Fangio and Moss to now is too great.
DodgyGeezer said:
I will admit that I'd love to see Hamilton in an old F1 car for a full race distance (as it was back then). As an aside a lot of the old uns would have gone through WW2 - mental toughness beyond what most of today's pampered stars have.... (not to mention seeing friends/rivals die during races)
It would be more amusing to see an F1 driver of old try and get into a modern car and if they could get in then move off. Edited by DodgyGeezer on Wednesday 24th November 16:17
Modern drivers may well be pampered, but I bet you they have more mental toughness than most of the people on this thread!
MustangGT said:
Bo_apex said:
hot metal said:
Drivers have developed along with the cars over the decades, as expected.
Wonder who would win an arm wrestling competition, Fangio or Hamilton ??
The petrol fumes alone would knock out most of today's snowflakes over race distance.Wonder who would win an arm wrestling competition, Fangio or Hamilton ??
Nuvolari would do both of 'em in an arm wrestle.
You know there are different types of conditioning and endurance right ?
Today's gym bunnies can't drink petrol, smoke cigarettes, take a face full of stones, or sit on a hot exhaust pipe for full GP distance.
hot metal said:
swisstoni said:
Comparing sportsmen from different eras.
Wasting everyone’s time on the internet since 1994.
The question is to define elite, not compare different eras, don`t go thinking you can cancel history of the sport on here.Wasting everyone’s time on the internet since 1994.
I have watched almost every race live since 1984, and for me what separates the elite form the just excellent it would be the significance of their weaknesses.
For example, Senna was hot-headed, but he was so talented he won championships despite that. Prost was too political and not the best in the wet but he still won championships. Schumacher was close to being the complete driver, but he was a cheating so-and so. All were elite champions despite their relatively minor weaknesses.
Alonso said he was 9/10 at everything, and on the track that’s fair, but he didn’t win the races & championships he should have because he fell out with too many people & burned too many bridges to get himself into winning cars for much of his career. His weakness was so significant that it affected his career.
And then there is Hamilton, who stands alone in the modern era because he has no significant weaknesses.
For example, Senna was hot-headed, but he was so talented he won championships despite that. Prost was too political and not the best in the wet but he still won championships. Schumacher was close to being the complete driver, but he was a cheating so-and so. All were elite champions despite their relatively minor weaknesses.
Alonso said he was 9/10 at everything, and on the track that’s fair, but he didn’t win the races & championships he should have because he fell out with too many people & burned too many bridges to get himself into winning cars for much of his career. His weakness was so significant that it affected his career.
And then there is Hamilton, who stands alone in the modern era because he has no significant weaknesses.
Edited by Bradgate on Wednesday 24th November 21:12
Bradgate said:
I have watched almost every race live since 1984, and for me what separates the elite form the just excellent it would be the significance of their weaknesses.
For example, Senna was hot-headed, but he was so talented he won championships despite that. Prost was too political and not the best in the wet but he still won championships. Schumacher was close to being the complete driver, but he was a cheating so-and so. All were elite champions despite their relatively minor weaknesses.
Alonso said he was 9/10 at everything, and on the track that’s fair, but he didn’t win the races & championships he should have because he fell out with too many people & burned too many bridges to get himself into winning cars for much of his career. His weakness was so significant that it affected his career.
And then there is Hamilton, who stands alone in the modern era because he has no significant weaknesses.
I agree with 99% of this. LH certainly had a few gaps earlier in his career but as it stands today he is operating on a completely different level. I know this forum has people baying for Max's blood but it says a lot for him and his future path that he is able to run so close to LH and put up a challenge, when he is LH's age in 12 years time who knows where he will be.For example, Senna was hot-headed, but he was so talented he won championships despite that. Prost was too political and not the best in the wet but he still won championships. Schumacher was close to being the complete driver, but he was a cheating so-and so. All were elite champions despite their relatively minor weaknesses.
Alonso said he was 9/10 at everything, and on the track that’s fair, but he didn’t win the races & championships he should have because he fell out with too many people & burned too many bridges to get himself into winning cars for much of his career. His weakness was so significant that it affected his career.
And then there is Hamilton, who stands alone in the modern era because he has no significant weaknesses.
Edited by Bradgate on Wednesday 24th November 21:12
I was gutted Alonso lost in 2012, that was an amazing season but yes I fully agree he has burned bridges over the years. If the chilled Alonso of 2021 had the same attitude 15 years ago he would rightfully have another 3-4 championships (particularly if he had gone to Red Bull when he was in discussions with them).
Oh and I started in 1984 too. The only races I have missed on TV is when I've been at the track!
Bo_apex said:
MustangGT said:
Bo_apex said:
hot metal said:
Drivers have developed along with the cars over the decades, as expected.
Wonder who would win an arm wrestling competition, Fangio or Hamilton ??
The petrol fumes alone would knock out most of today's snowflakes over race distance.Wonder who would win an arm wrestling competition, Fangio or Hamilton ??
Nuvolari would do both of 'em in an arm wrestle.
Piginapoke said:
Muzzer79 said:
Piginapoke said:
LukeBrown66 said:
The elite manage to make what they do seem effortless and achieve it with little controversy.;
In my mind, Fangio, Ascari, Clark, Stewart, Prost, Lewis make winning easy.
Others get there through circumstance and raw talent like, vettel, Alonso, Rosberg, Piquet, Lauda, Emmo as their careers pitch a little up and down.
Finally there are the bullies like Hunt, Senna, Schumacher, maybe black Jack who through sheer will achieve their goals in whatever way they can.
I admire them all but the first group are the elite in my mind.
Worth pointing out that Prost was destroyed by Senna in their 2 years together.In my mind, Fangio, Ascari, Clark, Stewart, Prost, Lewis make winning easy.
Others get there through circumstance and raw talent like, vettel, Alonso, Rosberg, Piquet, Lauda, Emmo as their careers pitch a little up and down.
Finally there are the bullies like Hunt, Senna, Schumacher, maybe black Jack who through sheer will achieve their goals in whatever way they can.
I admire them all but the first group are the elite in my mind.
I ask because you can't be referring to 1988/1989, because that would be............wrong.
1988
Senna race wins 8
Senna podiums 11
Prost race wins 7
Prost podiums 14
WDC Senna
Prost was first or second in every race apart from the British GP, where he retired with handling problems and the Italian GP, where his engine failed.
1989
Senna race wins 6
Senna podiums 7
Prost race wins 4
Prost podiums 11
WDC Prost
Edited by Muzzer79 on Wednesday 24th November 10:17
Agreed
I’m sure Prost sleeps well knowing that he destroyed Senna with podiums…..
Clearly pretty even overall though.
Muzzer79 said:
So Senna destroyed Prost at pole positions in the two years they were together is what you’re actually saying?
Agreed
I’m sure Prost sleeps well knowing that he destroyed Senna with podiums…..
Clearly pretty even overall though.
Both said it was the rivalry of their lives and pushed them to operate at a higher level. A friend who was on the McLaren race team in 1988 told me that despite the occasional frosty moment it was an incredible environment to work in as the team knew they were working with the two best in the world. Jo Ramirez also said the same.Agreed
I’m sure Prost sleeps well knowing that he destroyed Senna with podiums…..
Clearly pretty even overall though.
Best thing is I'm glad they patched up their differences at the end although the film never showed that. It's not inconceivable they would have worked together in post-F1 careers.
Frankly the earlier comment is by someone who has no idea at all.
Say what you like, for me elite means Fangio, Clark, Hamilton, everything else is contentious, maybe Stewart, was he bad at anything ?? I`m sticking with the first 3. A great many other brilliant drivers over the years who have thrilled us with their skill but............
I noticed a picture of Gonzalez earlier, I am sure this was meant as some kind of piss take at the guys physical appearance, a very talented & strong driver, Ferrari`s first championship race winner when the Ferrari had no business winning. A pioneer of the sport we love today in pioneering cars that were no more than coffins with big engines & skinny tyres, still capable of in excess of 180mph. Do not dismiss these guys, they were the stars of their time, rolling the dice, each race was like playing Russian Roulette, 300 mile races, taking 3 & a half hours . F1 has evolved, slowly , even more slowly now, the drivers have done so with it, but if the FIA suddenly announced that F1 was was reverting to 1950`s regs, cars ,tracks and safety, most of our current crop of athletes would sod off to NASCAR.
I noticed a picture of Gonzalez earlier, I am sure this was meant as some kind of piss take at the guys physical appearance, a very talented & strong driver, Ferrari`s first championship race winner when the Ferrari had no business winning. A pioneer of the sport we love today in pioneering cars that were no more than coffins with big engines & skinny tyres, still capable of in excess of 180mph. Do not dismiss these guys, they were the stars of their time, rolling the dice, each race was like playing Russian Roulette, 300 mile races, taking 3 & a half hours . F1 has evolved, slowly , even more slowly now, the drivers have done so with it, but if the FIA suddenly announced that F1 was was reverting to 1950`s regs, cars ,tracks and safety, most of our current crop of athletes would sod off to NASCAR.
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