What separates the excellent from the elite?

What separates the excellent from the elite?

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Discussion

Roofless Toothless

3,888 posts

104 months

Thursday 25th November
quotequote all
cgt2 said:
I was lucky enough to be at Donington in 1993. If that wasn't greatness I don't know what else could define the term.
Traction control perhaps?

Senna himself wasn’t even particularly impressed by it.

cgt2

2,322 posts

160 months

Thursday 25th November
quotequote all
PhilAsia said:
I have read that Prost emphasised setting up the car for the race. Senna more towards qualy. However I wasn't there so I do not know if this is 100% or not...
The best example of this is Mexico 1990 when Prost started 13th and won. He always worked on race setup which is why his pole stats were not as high.

Piginapoke

2,596 posts

157 months

Thursday 25th November
quotequote all
cgt2 said:
PhilAsia said:
I have read that Prost emphasised setting up the car for the race. Senna more towards qualy. However I wasn't there so I do not know if this is 100% or not...
The best example of this is Mexico 1990 when Prost started 13th and won. He always worked on race setup which is why his pole stats were not as high.
I'm not so sure that is true. In those days you had unlimited testing and could change the car/engine completely between qualifying and the race- there was no need to focus on race set up in qualifying. In Mexico, Prost couldn't get the qualifying set up to work so reverted to his race set up early.

I totally agree was Prost was a great driver, but I think simply not as quick as Senna.

Muzzer79

5,643 posts

159 months

Thursday 25th November
quotequote all
Piginapoke said:
I totally agree was Prost was a great driver, but I think simply not as quick as Senna.
That could be debated forever and a day

But what I think is clear is that your general statement "Senna destroyed Prost in their two years together" patently isn't correct.

Piginapoke

2,596 posts

157 months

Thursday 25th November
quotequote all
Muzzer79 said:
Piginapoke said:
I totally agree was Prost was a great driver, but I think simply not as quick as Senna.
That could be debated forever and a day

But what I think is clear is that your general statement "Senna destroyed Prost in their two years together" patently isn't correct.
In your opinion.

MustangGT

9,195 posts

252 months

Thursday 25th November
quotequote all
Piginapoke said:
Muzzer79 said:
Piginapoke said:
I totally agree was Prost was a great driver, but I think simply not as quick as Senna.
That could be debated forever and a day

But what I think is clear is that your general statement "Senna destroyed Prost in their two years together" patently isn't correct.
In your opinion.
No, based on the provable facts.

StevieBee

Original Poster:

10,363 posts

227 months

Thursday 25th November
quotequote all
M5-911 said:
cgt2 said:
I was lucky enough to be at Donington in 1993. If that wasn't greatness I don't know what else could define the term.
Not really when you know that he was the only front runner car on rain set up.
But why did nobody else set theirs up similarly? Is not that another mark of the elite that they are able to sense what's needed and mobiles a team accordingly.

mat205125

16,343 posts

185 months

Thursday 25th November
quotequote all
Schermerhorn said:
DodgyGeezer said:
Schermerhorn said:
Really?

You really reckon a Chubby Chubster like Fangio could even fit in a modern F1 car let alone keep up with someone like Senna, Prost, Schumacher and the like?


Edited by Schermerhorn on Tuesday 23 November 17:14
you could equally argue can you imagine a modern driver having to drive the crude and unsafe cars of then?
I'd put my money on a fit athlete than a fat bloke to drive a car faster.
Agreed, but the modern sensibility of safety and risk would come into play if a modern driver went back in time to line up an auto union at the nurburgring

Either way to play the scenario, its inappropriate to compare generations

Milkyway

1,352 posts

25 months

Thursday 25th November
quotequote all
Hasn’t it got something to do with a portion of the brain... you’re either wired up that way... or not.
Personally... I would have loved to see Jensen Button in a Mercedes.

( Apparently, Schumacher was blessed) scratchchin
https://gts-rs.co.uk/2017/11/28/scientists-found-k...


Edited by Milkyway on Thursday 25th November 13:58

Simoncelli58

47 posts

36 months

Thursday 25th November
quotequote all
'What separates the excellent from the elite' as per the OP .

Certainly in the last 20 odd years I would say -

Luck / opportunity / timing / team / car ........... and some talent

Never popular here where people seem to think that some drivers are born elite .

You have to have these tools to develop into an elite driver . 95% of all F1 drivers are 'excellent' but other outside influences give you the chance to develop 'elite' status .

vulture1

9,350 posts

151 months

Thursday 25th November
quotequote all
paulw123 said:
Genius - Hamilton, Fangio, Clark etc

Flawed genius - Senna & Schumacher
I'd agree with that. I'd add Alonso to flawed genius as thr ability to get on with your team matters and he has alienated ferrari mclaren and Honda in his time possibly preventing him for better cars.

Vettel to me right car right time so not in the elite just good.

sandman77

1,875 posts

110 months

Thursday 25th November
quotequote all
Simoncelli58 said:
'What separates the excellent from the elite' as per the OP .

Certainly in the last 20 odd years I would say -

Luck / opportunity / timing / team / car ........... and some talent

Never popular here where people seem to think that some drivers are born elite .

You have to have these tools to develop into an elite driver . 95% of all F1 drivers are 'excellent' but other outside influences give you the chance to develop 'elite' status .
I have never given it much thought but this is probably the truth. We all (mostly) accept that Lewis is the greatest of the current era and one of the all time greats but if he hadn’t left McLaren and joined Mercedes at the right time I doubt anyone would be giving him those accolades. It is also likely that Roseberg would be a multiple world champion and be touted as an elite driver on this thread.

PH User

20,571 posts

80 months

Thursday 25th November
quotequote all
mat205125 said:
Agreed, but the modern sensibility of safety and risk would come into play if a modern driver went back in time to line up an auto union at the nurburgring
That is something that we will never know.

Muzzer79

5,643 posts

159 months

Thursday 25th November
quotequote all
Piginapoke said:
Muzzer79 said:
Piginapoke said:
I totally agree was Prost was a great driver, but I think simply not as quick as Senna.
That could be debated forever and a day

But what I think is clear is that your general statement "Senna destroyed Prost in their two years together" patently isn't correct.
In your opinion.
Ah, the 'flat earth' debating method. Best to leave it there then.

hot metal

1,577 posts

165 months

Thursday 25th November
quotequote all
sandman77 said:
I have never given it much thought but this is probably the truth. We all (mostly) accept that Lewis is the greatest of the current era and one of the all time greats but if he hadn’t left McLaren and joined Mercedes at the right time I doubt anyone would be giving him those accolades. It is also likely that Roseberg would be a multiple world champion and be touted as an elite driver on this thread.
Hmm.........think really hard about that statement, it takes more than just multiple championships before we are discussing `Elite` ,Vettel ,Piquet, Brabham & others not getting a lot of mentions here, plus I think Rosberg would have dropped the ball without a great team mate pushing him, Alonso & Vettel most likely would have taken the spoils. Rosberg had to win 1 WDC, the Germans expected it.

cgt2

2,322 posts

160 months

Thursday 25th November
quotequote all
sandman77 said:
I have never given it much thought but this is probably the truth. We all (mostly) accept that Lewis is the greatest of the current era and one of the all time greats but if he hadn’t left McLaren and joined Mercedes at the right time I doubt anyone would be giving him those accolades. It is also likely that Roseberg would be a multiple world champion and be touted as an elite driver on this thread.
I remember Brawn and Lauda both lobbied him intensely and eventually convinced him to make the move. He wasn't sure about it being the right move at the time.

Sandpit Steve

4,741 posts

46 months

Thursday 25th November
quotequote all
cgt2 said:
sandman77 said:
I have never given it much thought but this is probably the truth. We all (mostly) accept that Lewis is the greatest of the current era and one of the all time greats but if he hadn’t left McLaren and joined Mercedes at the right time I doubt anyone would be giving him those accolades. It is also likely that Roseberg would be a multiple world champion and be touted as an elite driver on this thread.
I remember Brawn and Lauda both lobbied him intensely and eventually convinced him to make the move. He wasn't sure about it being the right move at the time.
Very much so, why would you leave an established winning team, for an outfit that hadn’t won much in the last couple of years. Niki Lauda spent a few days convincing Lewis, that Mercedes were putting together a proper works team effort at the new regulations, with hundreds of people already employed a couple of years out.

The rest, as they say, is history.

Piginapoke

2,596 posts

157 months

Thursday 25th November
quotequote all
StevieBee said:
M5-911 said:
cgt2 said:
I was lucky enough to be at Donington in 1993. If that wasn't greatness I don't know what else could define the term.
Not really when you know that he was the only front runner car on rain set up.
But why did nobody else set theirs up similarly? Is not that another mark of the elite that they are able to sense what's needed and mobiles a team accordingly.
Senna's first laps at Donington were a sign of greatness- you should maybe take another look. The MP4/8 was a tidy car but way off the Williams pace that year, what Senna did with it at Donington was just fantastic.

As an aside, I think 93 was Senna's best year in F1- 5 wins was way more than the car deserved.

Piginapoke

2,596 posts

157 months

Thursday 25th November
quotequote all
cgt2 said:
sandman77 said:
I have never given it much thought but this is probably the truth. We all (mostly) accept that Lewis is the greatest of the current era and one of the all time greats but if he hadn’t left McLaren and joined Mercedes at the right time I doubt anyone would be giving him those accolades. It is also likely that Roseberg would be a multiple world champion and be touted as an elite driver on this thread.
I remember Brawn and Lauda both lobbied him intensely and eventually convinced him to make the move. He wasn't sure about it being the right move at the time.
Totally agree with that, Lewis has benefited from the Mercedes project rather than driven it. Rosberg could have hoovered up a lot more titles if Lewis has left and he'd stayed.

Muzzer79

5,643 posts

159 months

Thursday 25th November
quotequote all
Piginapoke said:
cgt2 said:
sandman77 said:
I have never given it much thought but this is probably the truth. We all (mostly) accept that Lewis is the greatest of the current era and one of the all time greats but if he hadn’t left McLaren and joined Mercedes at the right time I doubt anyone would be giving him those accolades. It is also likely that Roseberg would be a multiple world champion and be touted as an elite driver on this thread.
I remember Brawn and Lauda both lobbied him intensely and eventually convinced him to make the move. He wasn't sure about it being the right move at the time.
Totally agree with that, Lewis has benefited from the Mercedes project rather than driven it. Rosberg could have hoovered up a lot more titles if Lewis has left and he'd stayed.
If my Aunt had balls then she'd be my uncle......

In all seriousness, it's a fallacy to assume that Hamilton has had nothing to do with Mercedes' success other than driving the car.

It would almost be akin to saying that Barrichello would be a multiple champion if Schumacher had left Ferrari.

Rosberg was (relatively) better than Barrichello, but who knows if he'd have been able to reach those heights without Hamilton's benchmark being there.