Official 2021 Saudi Arabia Grand Prix Thread ***SPOILERS***
Discussion
Flooble said:
I wonder how hard the track is now. Could be interesting if they tear up the surface in FP1
I don’t think that will be a problem. It’s a very specific material and construction. The aggregate is probably imported from the UK or Europe and they probably won’t have been able to use the domestic slave labour either. Usually it’s the drain ducts and covers which cause problems on new circuits but I can’t imagine they will have gone to much trouble in that area.
HustleRussell said:
Flooble said:
I wonder how hard the track is now. Could be interesting if they tear up the surface in FP1
I don’t think that will be a problem. It’s a very specific material and construction. The aggregate is probably imported from the UK or Europe and they probably won’t have been able to use the domestic slave labour either. Usually it’s the drain ducts and covers which cause problems on new circuits but I can’t imagine they will have gone to much trouble in that area.
Whatever it turns out to be, it will clearly be a brand new and very green surface - and a complete unknown to the teams. That alone will cause some drama, it's guaranteed. As such I'll be watching FP1 as the first few tentative push laps will be interesting
StevieBee said:
Don't know about anyone else but from the promo illustration, I'm looking forward to the return of Stewart GP and Berger - and to see how they manage DRS into a corner.
These renders with stock images are always funny, everywhere does it with stock pictures of "people walking around" in their building renders and the perspective is never, never right.StevieBee said:
Don't know about anyone else but from the promo illustration, I'm looking forward to the return of Stewart GP and Berger - and to see how they manage DRS into a corner.
Now, that would be a sensible move for the show. DRS Closed on straights and open on twists, I'd enjoy to watch that
defblade said:
Piginapoke said:
Latest pics
Anyone else find that building on the right making them queasy?Looks like someone's been playing Jenga with it!
As for the rest of the circuit... this has to be the closest a new circuit has ever been to only just being ready in time for a GP. It's both impressive and bewildering that they've (apparently, on the surface at least) managed it
Me on the Qatar thread said:
If I was RB I'd take a new engine in Saudi with everything whacked up to the max to last 2 races. Take an easy 2nd there and hope the engine levels the field in Abu Dhabi
So maybe I called it in the last thread, looks like Max might take a new engine with everything turned up to 11 I would bet. Game on! 
Translated article below:
Translation:
Helmut Marko has made it clear that the Milton Keynes team could insist on the Russian homologated power unit 4, but there are rumours of a push by Japanese engineers to replace the 6-cylinder with a fresh unit. Honda would have preferred the operation to be done at Losail, in the knowledge that Verstappen would have finished second anyway. Is this pre-tactics or a new Red Bull strategy?
The answer to one of the most frequently asked questions on the eve of the Jeddah trip will come even before qualifying and the race. We're talking about Max Verstappen, and his last chance to bring the ICE number 5 onto the track, a choice that would result in a five position penalty on the starting grid for the Saudi Arabian Grand Prix.
These are tense days at Red Bull (as well as Mercedes) and it couldn't be otherwise considering both the stakes and the arrival of the final squeeze of an intense season. The long and exhausting confrontation between Mercedes and Red Bull, as well as between Max and Lewis, has led the direct protagonists to say "by now, come what may", confirming the awareness of having given everything.
The arithmetic says that Verstappen is the only one who can close the world championship in Jeddah, but to do so he will have to gain 17 points on Hamilton, not an impossible task but definitely uphill.
Max can count on a not inconsiderable advantage in the overall standings (8 points), but in the Red Bull box there is still a question mark hanging over him: what to do about the 'engine'? In terms of reliability, Honda has confirmed that it has done a great deal of work in preparation for the 2021 season, but even though the Japanese PUs have not shown any problems, the last one homologated by Verstappen (no. 4) was the one taken to the track in Sochi.
Even though there has been a capillary rotation, eight Grands Prix will have passed in Abu Dhabi since the last power unit made its debut, an important period of time that could (the conditional is obligatory) have put between 2,000 and 2,500 kilometres on the shoulders of the ICE number 4.
The first PU change of the season for the two Red Bull drivers took place only at the seventh round of the season (French GP) and in the first six events no rotation is possible, so we are talking about engines that have covered races, qualifying and free practice, a distance of around 3,000 kilometres. Evaluations are traditionally based on the cost/benefit ratio, i.e. on the one hand the penalty to be served on the starting grid, and on the other the benefits in terms of performance and peace of mind on the reliability front.
The ideal context in which to mount the ICE number 5 on Verstappen's car would undoubtedly have been Losail. The superiority that Max confirmed (along with Hamilton) over the rest of the pack would have allowed him to easily finish the race in second place even if he had started from eleventh position, but as much as Honda was in favour of using the new engine on the Qatar weekend, Red Bull hoped until the very end that Verstappen's front row start would be a chance to turn the weekend around.
However, when it was announced that Max had to serve a penalty for failing to slow down under a yellow flag, which effectively thwarted Red Bull's hopes, there was no more time to provide an engine change.
A change of ICE in Jeddah is another story, because while in Losail both the performance and the chances of overtaking were certain, on the unprecedented Saudi circuit it is all a big question mark.
Friday's free practice sessions will dispel some doubts, but it won't be a very clear context until Sunday. There is therefore a little more room for risk, especially regarding the possibility of quickly recovering a handicap on the grid on a track that could prove insidious.
In recent days, Helmut Marko has sent out a message in an interview with Dutch newspaper De Telegraaf: "We know that Hamilton has covered around 400 kilometres with the engine used in Brazil, and the degradation of that engine is high. So we believe that that 'rocket' will not be able to guarantee the same power as seen at Interlagos in the next two races."
It can be deduced that Red Bull's line is to continue with the power units that Verstappen has at his disposal, but this season we have repeatedly seen how on the front of statements from both Red Bull and Mercedes there is a strategy that aims more to muddy the waters than to shed light on the situation. The question remains, and the definitive answer will only come in Jeddah on the evening between Friday and Saturday...
Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator (free version)
https://it.motorsport.com/f1/news/f1-red-bull-hond...
The question is, have Honda fully studied the potential of this increased mode and it’s impact on reliability?
Mercedes have been laying the groundwork for Hamilton engine no. 5 since the summer break with Bottas’ car the test bed (IMO). It’s beginning to look like a master stroke which could enable him to win the WDC. Mercedes will love that we’re two races from the end and Red Bull are considering reactive knee-jerk.
Mercedes have been laying the groundwork for Hamilton engine no. 5 since the summer break with Bottas’ car the test bed (IMO). It’s beginning to look like a master stroke which could enable him to win the WDC. Mercedes will love that we’re two races from the end and Red Bull are considering reactive knee-jerk.
HustleRussell said:
The question is, have Honda fully studied the potential of this increased mode and it’s impact on reliability?
Mercedes have been laying the groundwork for Hamilton engine no. 5 since the summer break with Bottas’ car the test bed (IMO). It’s beginning to look like a master stroke which could enable him to win the WDC. Mercedes will love that we’re two races from the end and Red Bull are considering reactive knee-jerk.
I mean they do have massively sophisticated engine dyno's that can run 24/7 in climate controlled rooms with motion control to simulate kerbs, vibrations, temp, humidity, shock loading etc. Even some rumours they can simulate G forces to a degree by mounting it on a centrifuge.. So it's not a complete stab in the dark. Merc have well known performance degradation issues which may explain why they had to use Bottas as a live sacrificial lamb before being confident to turn it up. Mercedes have been laying the groundwork for Hamilton engine no. 5 since the summer break with Bottas’ car the test bed (IMO). It’s beginning to look like a master stroke which could enable him to win the WDC. Mercedes will love that we’re two races from the end and Red Bull are considering reactive knee-jerk.
honda_exige said:
HustleRussell said:
The question is, have Honda fully studied the potential of this increased mode and it’s impact on reliability?
Mercedes have been laying the groundwork for Hamilton engine no. 5 since the summer break with Bottas’ car the test bed (IMO). It’s beginning to look like a master stroke which could enable him to win the WDC. Mercedes will love that we’re two races from the end and Red Bull are considering reactive knee-jerk.
I mean they do have massively sophisticated engine dyno's that can run 24/7 in climate controlled rooms with motion control to simulate kerbs, vibrations, temp, humidity, shock loading etc. Even some rumours they can simulate G forces to a degree by mounting it on a centrifuge.. So it's not a complete stab in the dark. Merc have well known performance degradation issues which may explain why they had to use Bottas as a live sacrificial lamb before being confident to turn it up. Mercedes have been laying the groundwork for Hamilton engine no. 5 since the summer break with Bottas’ car the test bed (IMO). It’s beginning to look like a master stroke which could enable him to win the WDC. Mercedes will love that we’re two races from the end and Red Bull are considering reactive knee-jerk.
Max will already be faster than almost everyone on the track, so let him start from the front row (worst case, the Mercedes suits the track so he starts third and is back to 2nd past Bottas before the second corner - we have seen that over and over again). I just don't see the benefit in starting further back, unless they think that they really need the extra 5km/h (ish). If he's only just fast enough to beat Hamilton by taking a new engine, then it's going to be hard to do it from 6th, even with a lap like he put in in Qatar.
Unless the idea is to still have some speed boost in Abu Dhabi, so he can stick it on pole there and cruise to victory. That would make sense. Accept 2nd in Jeddah (he won't ever finish worse than that, even with penalties) and then take the win at the final race to seal the Championship in the best way possible.
Flooble said:
honda_exige said:
HustleRussell said:
The question is, have Honda fully studied the potential of this increased mode and it’s impact on reliability?
Mercedes have been laying the groundwork for Hamilton engine no. 5 since the summer break with Bottas’ car the test bed (IMO). It’s beginning to look like a master stroke which could enable him to win the WDC. Mercedes will love that we’re two races from the end and Red Bull are considering reactive knee-jerk.
I mean they do have massively sophisticated engine dyno's that can run 24/7 in climate controlled rooms with motion control to simulate kerbs, vibrations, temp, humidity, shock loading etc. Even some rumours they can simulate G forces to a degree by mounting it on a centrifuge.. So it's not a complete stab in the dark. Merc have well known performance degradation issues which may explain why they had to use Bottas as a live sacrificial lamb before being confident to turn it up. Mercedes have been laying the groundwork for Hamilton engine no. 5 since the summer break with Bottas’ car the test bed (IMO). It’s beginning to look like a master stroke which could enable him to win the WDC. Mercedes will love that we’re two races from the end and Red Bull are considering reactive knee-jerk.
Max will already be faster than almost everyone on the track, so let him start from the front row (worst case, the Mercedes suits the track so he starts third and is back to 2nd past Bottas before the second corner - we have seen that over and over again). I just don't see the benefit in starting further back, unless they think that they really need the extra 5km/h (ish). If he's only just fast enough to beat Hamilton by taking a new engine, then it's going to be hard to do it from 6th, even with a lap like he put in in Qatar.
Unless the idea is to still have some speed boost in Abu Dhabi, so he can stick it on pole there and cruise to victory. That would make sense. Accept 2nd in Jeddah (he won't ever finish worse than that, even with penalties) and then take the win at the final race to seal the Championship in the best way possible.
I would even, if I was RB, take the new engine in 3rd practice & trigger the penalty then swap back to the previous one for the race (someone mentioned that this may not be legal, I couldn't find a reason why it wouldn't be) having the new engine for one race in Abu Dhabi with no penalties.
If they can't eke extra performance via higher modes from an engine when you only need it to last one race instead of 8 I would be flabbergasted, even with the supposed resistance of the Honda to degradation.
honda_exige said:
Yeah I theorised on the previous thread that it's all about Abu Dhabi. I think write off Saudi as 2nd, or even 3rd, it won't make a difference if the aim is to win in Abu Dhabi, which he has to do if he doesn't win in Saudi as expected.
I would even, if I was RB, take the new engine in 3rd practice & trigger the penalty then swap back to the previous one for the race (someone mentioned that this may not be legal, I couldn't find a reason why it wouldn't be) having the new engine for one race in Abu Dhabi with no penalties.
If they can't eke extra performance via higher modes from an engine when you only need it to last one race instead of 8 I would be flabbergasted, even with the supposed resistance of the Honda to degradation.
Yeah, I think I said something similar on a thread somewhere. I don't know why you couldn't introduce a new engine like that either. I can see it might not be possible to swap back after qualifying unless you "wrote-off" the engine you took out the car, but after Free Practice I don't see the issue.I would even, if I was RB, take the new engine in 3rd practice & trigger the penalty then swap back to the previous one for the race (someone mentioned that this may not be legal, I couldn't find a reason why it wouldn't be) having the new engine for one race in Abu Dhabi with no penalties.
If they can't eke extra performance via higher modes from an engine when you only need it to last one race instead of 8 I would be flabbergasted, even with the supposed resistance of the Honda to degradation.
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