Christian Horner
Discussion
lauda said:
I have no experience of non compete and am not a lawyer but I can see them being justified in the context of tapping up and stealing former clients or poaching key staff.
But just being really good at your job and your current employer not wanting anyone else to benefit from that expertise seems less justifiable.
In Newey's case it's more to do with RB deeming 12 months sufficient for most data that's in his head being out of date. That's really what it's about here, intellectual property. Newey's lawyers might feel bullish due to the impending rule changes plus enough money from another team to lob at RB to buy them off. Or just because the other information about RB that he has in his head and on memory sticks will be an easy trade? It's just a haggle. But just being really good at your job and your current employer not wanting anyone else to benefit from that expertise seems less justifiable.
DonkeyApple said:
In Newey's case it's more to do with RB deeming 12 months sufficient for most data that's in his head being out of date. That's really what it's about here, intellectual property. Newey's lawyers might feel bullish due to the impending rule changes plus enough money from another team to lob at RB to buy them off. Or just because the other information about RB that he has in his head and on memory sticks will be an easy trade? It's just a haggle.
When working with F1 teams some years ago they had much shorter NDA terms than other industries as it was accpeted that any innovation would be leaked to other teams by general movement of staff soon enough so trying to keep stuff secret for more than a year was futile.DonkeyApple said:
In Newey's case it's more to do with RB deeming 12 months sufficient for most data that's in his head being out of date. That's really what it's about here, intellectual property. Newey's lawyers might feel bullish due to the impending rule changes plus enough money from another team to lob at RB to buy them off. Or just because the other information about RB that he has in his head and on memory sticks will be an easy trade? It's just a haggle.
That would be a period of Gardening Leave? He would need to be an employee would he not?? And he is instead a consultant acting for a Ltd company no?
The upcoming major rules change for which the rules haven't been released yet, and the ban on working those cars until next year, should make it easier for him to argue an earlier start date somewhere else. Gardening leave until the end of this year will mean he can't influence next year's car for a competitor, and he can't take any 2026 data from RB because nobody has started on those cars yet. It's pretty much the best time for him to break contract with the least fuss possible.
thegreenhell said:
The upcoming major rules change for which the rules haven't been released yet, and the ban on working those cars until next year, should make it easier for him to argue an earlier start date somewhere else. Gardening leave until the end of this year will mean he can't influence next year's car for a competitor, and he can't take any 2026 data from RB because nobody has started on those cars yet. It's pretty much the best time for him to break contract with the least fuss possible.
Good point I think.ChemicalChaos said:
sweetmate said:
He’s a brilliant designer but he’s not the be all and end all most of Mclarens, all of Ferrari/shumacher era and Mercedes dominance were done without him.
To be fair I'd say a lot of that was due to the Mercedes grenades in the back of them, rather than any aero deficiencies Derek Smith said:
thegreenhell said:
The upcoming major rules change for which the rules haven't been released yet, and the ban on working those cars until next year, should make it easier for him to argue an earlier start date somewhere else. Gardening leave until the end of this year will mean he can't influence next year's car for a competitor, and he can't take any 2026 data from RB because nobody has started on those cars yet. It's pretty much the best time for him to break contract with the least fuss possible.
Good point I think.Although in this instance it is possible that his lawyers could say 'we believe his contract is null because of Horner's conduct - and we're happy to fight that point in court', at which point RBR defending themselves might become tricky as they obviously don't want any further public airing of whatever went on. It's just possible that what would normally be a no brainer legal battle could be so undesirable as to be considered better to concede Newey's immediate and relatively low key departure.
It's F1, weird and not fully explained things happen several times a year, applying conventional wisdom often doesn't tally with what actually happens.
I suspect the negotiation will go something like this (and I’m assuming BTW that Newey is contracting through a limited company, but I don’t know this for certain).
RB: “AN Ltd is contracted to provide AN until the end of 2025, and thereafter not to compete for 12 months.”
ANL: “RB have created a hostile work environment in which AN & ANL are being commercially and reputationaly damaged by association. ANL is prepared to test those claims in court.”
Then the actual negotiations start
RB: “AN Ltd is contracted to provide AN until the end of 2025, and thereafter not to compete for 12 months.”
ANL: “RB have created a hostile work environment in which AN & ANL are being commercially and reputationaly damaged by association. ANL is prepared to test those claims in court.”
Then the actual negotiations start
drdel said:
AN is one person in the team of engineers. The design software is not run by him and his 'pencil'. RB know what works on their cars and they will happily survive all this personality focused noise.
Do you think it’s purely a coincidence that most of the cars Newey had been involved with over the last few decades have been at least class of the field and often crushingly dominant?paulguitar said:
drdel said:
AN is one person in the team of engineers. The design software is not run by him and his 'pencil'. RB know what works on their cars and they will happily survive all this personality focused noise.
Do you think it’s purely a coincidence that most of the cars Newey had been involved with over the last few decades have been at least class of the field and often crushingly dominant?
732NM said:
The largest threat to RBR is not losing AN. It's the powertrain program not working.
There's actually no threat to RBR as a team, they'll definitely survive, but without Newey they'll eventually most likely lose a step and the divide at the top and subsequent frustration of the the verstappens hasn't fully played out yet and is likely to cause more damage.Cocking up the new regs PU would be the turd on the birthday cake, but even if they do a good job, it's an aero era now and post 26', they're still not going to remain the dream team we have seen in recent years.
The team should be on top of the world right now, but it's all looking pretty sour behind the scenes.
paulguitar said:
drdel said:
AN is one person in the team of engineers. The design software is not run by him and his 'pencil'. RB know what works on their cars and they will happily survive all this personality focused noise.
Do you think it’s purely a coincidence that most of the cars Newey had been involved with over the last few decades have been at least class of the field and often crushingly dominant?RB have backed themselves into a PR nightmare that they can't now get out of. AN leaving is potentially the biggest problem they've faced so far. The damage to the brand continues to grow and create a toxic, morally corrupt environment because it appears they've covered something up. AN very obviously has an issue with the way it's been dealt with, what's actually happened or doesn't like the way the PA has been dealt with.
Regardless of how RB views Horner as a TP, it appears they've backed the wrong horse and things are probably going to get worse before they get over this.
Who says this won't be the start of other key parts of their engineering team walking out of the door?
Regardless of how RB views Horner as a TP, it appears they've backed the wrong horse and things are probably going to get worse before they get over this.
Who says this won't be the start of other key parts of their engineering team walking out of the door?
TheDeuce said:
There's actually no threat to RBR as a team, they'll definitely survive, but without Newey they'll eventually most likely lose a step and the divide at the top and subsequent frustration of the the verstappens hasn't fully played out yet and is likely to cause more damage.
Cocking up the new regs PU would be the turd on the birthday cake, but even if they do a good job, it's an aero era now and post 26', they're still not going to remain the dream team we have seen in recent years.
The team should be on top of the world right now, but it's all looking pretty sour behind the scenes.
I cannot imagine that the Verstappens will stay at Red Bull past 2026. By the end of the decade RB (if they are still around) will be a midfield team.Cocking up the new regs PU would be the turd on the birthday cake, but even if they do a good job, it's an aero era now and post 26', they're still not going to remain the dream team we have seen in recent years.
The team should be on top of the world right now, but it's all looking pretty sour behind the scenes.
I still think there is a lot of leaks and noise which may or may not come true.
Horner, like him or not, has proved to be one of the most successful team principles in F1 and has pulled together the best people and arguably drivers in recent years.
Newey is clearly an asset but one which Horner will have known had a diminishing shelf life and if people think he has not got the pieces in place for such an event I think they underestimate him and his abilities.
Is he flawed clearly but until any legal cases have been heard re his alleged conduct then we do not know facts just leaks "from sources close to Red Bull". Some of these will be the same ones leaking Newey leaving and allegedly it is all to do with Horner's conduct.
We will not know until this all plays out. I do wonder if many of those who hate Horner do so because of who he is married to as well as she was the most unpopular of the Spice Girls because she was outspoken, who knows.
F1 has turned into a circus and is that because Liberty have made it that way, from the debacle over the Abu Dhabi race which ended badly to "drive and survive" etc
If Newey does end up at Ferrari that would upset people in the design team there so we cannot assume that they will suddenly find the task of winning easy as some hope.
Time will tell
Horner, like him or not, has proved to be one of the most successful team principles in F1 and has pulled together the best people and arguably drivers in recent years.
Newey is clearly an asset but one which Horner will have known had a diminishing shelf life and if people think he has not got the pieces in place for such an event I think they underestimate him and his abilities.
Is he flawed clearly but until any legal cases have been heard re his alleged conduct then we do not know facts just leaks "from sources close to Red Bull". Some of these will be the same ones leaking Newey leaving and allegedly it is all to do with Horner's conduct.
We will not know until this all plays out. I do wonder if many of those who hate Horner do so because of who he is married to as well as she was the most unpopular of the Spice Girls because she was outspoken, who knows.
F1 has turned into a circus and is that because Liberty have made it that way, from the debacle over the Abu Dhabi race which ended badly to "drive and survive" etc
If Newey does end up at Ferrari that would upset people in the design team there so we cannot assume that they will suddenly find the task of winning easy as some hope.
Time will tell
shirt said:
spaximus said:
I do wonder if many of those who hate Horner do so because of who he is married to as well as she was the most unpopular of the Spice Girls because she was outspoken, who knows.
Username checks out And isn't Horner unpopular enough by being outspoken all by himself!? Why does Geri suddenly get some of the credit?
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