Will Lewis ever win #8?
Discussion
LukeBrown66 said:
Utter and complete nonsense, I can name numerous drivers with more talent even from the UK. Stewart, Clark, Moss spring to mind. there were great F1 drivers before this man actually, amazing as it might seem
They were great drivers too. Hamilton absolutely and completely belongs in the same category, as pretty much anyone from within the sport will confirm.LukeBrown66 said:
Utter and complete nonsense, I can name numerous drivers with more talent even from the UK. Stewart, Clark, Moss spring to mind. there were great F1 drivers before this man actually, amazing as it might seem
Facts can be proven. What you have there is called an opinion- and you know what they say about opinions.
paulguitar said:
LukeBrown66 said:
Utter and complete nonsense, I can name numerous drivers with more talent even from the UK. Stewart, Clark, Moss spring to mind. there were great F1 drivers before this man actually, amazing as it might seem
They were great drivers too. Hamilton absolutely and completely belongs in the same category, as pretty much anyone from within the sport will confirm.For LukeBrown66 to completely ignore:
Lewis' efforts against Alonso, a current two-time WDC, in his first year.
Button: A WDC, who he beat 2 out of three seasons. 2011 being an absolute jaw-dropper of an uncharacteristic out-of-control season.
Rosberg: who had just trounced Schumi in every measurable area: podiums; fastest laps; overtakes; qualifying; in the wet; points; three seasons, including double the points in two of the three seasons
Oddly, did not win the 2007 WDC - which we will read about later apparently
Won the 2008 WDC against the better Ferraris
Won 2018 and 2019 against an equal and/or marginally better Ferrari
Would have won the 2021 WDC without the Masi manipulation.
Plenty of other examples....
Foe LukeBrown66 to ignore and/or dismiss Lewis' work is incredulous tbh.
paulguitar said:
I think really arguing with blinkered people who don't understand Hamilton's level is sort of 'peak internet' really. Pretty much the definition of wasting time!
And yet it happens in this thread and every other week on every race thread. It'd be interesting to see how big each race thread would be without the Hamilton and Verstappen fans especially b
hing at each other LukeBrown66 said:
Utter and complete nonsense, I can name numerous drivers with more talent even from the UK. Stewart, Clark, Moss spring to mind. there were great F1 drivers before this man actually, amazing as it might seem
Desperate and pointless comparison. Stewart, Clark and Moss were from a completely different era, it was a different sport back then, they wouldn't stand a chance in modern F1. They and Hamilton should only be compared to their contemporaries. Hamiltons beaten all of his by quite some margin. Paul671 said:
Desperate and pointless comparison. Stewart, Clark and Moss were from a completely different era, it was a different sport back then, they wouldn't stand a chance in modern F1. They and Hamilton should only be compared to their contemporaries. Hamiltons beaten all of his by quite some margin.
I've worked on some of Jackie's F1 cars including the cars he owns and drives with his sons, even when he was driving a bought in car like the March 701, the Tyrrell team did some important mods to the chassis to make them better than the other March 701's. He always drove good cars and had the best mechanics, one of which is a friend of mine.For example Jackies car ran different rear suspension geometry by changing the chassis pickup points, to improve anti squat, it had different geometry on the front ARB and also had a steering damper fitted to reduce kickback. It also had Tyrrell introduced safety features which protected the fuel cell better. No other 701 had these features.
The top guys always find themselves in the top cars with the best teams. Funny how that happens.
jsf said:
He is the most talented driver the UK has produced.
Even if you ignore the overwhelming statistics his racecraft is second to none.
He is also a clean driver who makes very few mistakes.
The bloke beat Alonso, at the time the most likely driver to beat many records, in his first season in F1.
He should have two more championships if not for FIA interference.
He dealt with a very strong cheating Ferrari, he was so good Vettel lost his mind trying to keep up.
Rosberg was a very good driver, it took so much out of him to take on Lewis he promptly retired after winning his championship.
Bottas is a very quick qualifier in particular, he beat him regularly.
Verstappen, without doubt the quickest of his generation couldn't beat him despite having the fastest car for most of the season. The mental strength required to beat a dirty driver like Max in a faster car is extremely impressive. The bloke who stole the championship from Lewis lost his job in the fallout despite the concerted attempt by the establishment to gas light everyone who understood what happened in AD. Lewis just used his common sense and let them stew, he didnt need to say a word and even that fried many minds.
I genuinely am baffled by people who dont rate Lewis, the bloke has every aspect of driving an F1 car and winning championships nailed.
The kid done good, even after his F1 adventure is over, he will likely excel in his other interests, especially with young adults trying to make their mark in the world.
The only thing that I'd add to this is the context of the '16 title, which Luke had mentioned. After 4 races, Hamilton was 43 points behind Rosberg, almost half of which was down to qualifying reliability issues:Even if you ignore the overwhelming statistics his racecraft is second to none.
He is also a clean driver who makes very few mistakes.
The bloke beat Alonso, at the time the most likely driver to beat many records, in his first season in F1.
He should have two more championships if not for FIA interference.
He dealt with a very strong cheating Ferrari, he was so good Vettel lost his mind trying to keep up.
Rosberg was a very good driver, it took so much out of him to take on Lewis he promptly retired after winning his championship.
Bottas is a very quick qualifier in particular, he beat him regularly.
Verstappen, without doubt the quickest of his generation couldn't beat him despite having the fastest car for most of the season. The mental strength required to beat a dirty driver like Max in a faster car is extremely impressive. The bloke who stole the championship from Lewis lost his job in the fallout despite the concerted attempt by the establishment to gas light everyone who understood what happened in AD. Lewis just used his common sense and let them stew, he didnt need to say a word and even that fried many minds.
I genuinely am baffled by people who dont rate Lewis, the bloke has every aspect of driving an F1 car and winning championships nailed.
The kid done good, even after his F1 adventure is over, he will likely excel in his other interests, especially with young adults trying to make their mark in the world.
- Started last in China after failing to set a time, Rosberg won (outscoring Lewis by 19 points)
- Started 10th in Russia after a car failure in Q3, Rosberg won (7 points)
Those resulted in the engine penalty in Belgium - another race that Rosberg was able to win unopposed (10 points).
And he had Mercedes' only car failure DNF in Malaysia (a net swing of 28 points to Nico), while Rosberg suffered no reliability issues. Rosberg only won the title by 5 points, so take out any one of those and Hamilton would've been champion, by a margin of at least a race win. It's disingenuous to suggest losing in those circumstances is sonehow a reflection on Hamilton's ability.
From a personal perspective I remember seeing Hamilton race in FRenault, and it was obvious then that he was something special. I don't think there's anyone in F1 today that is a more complete driver than Hamilton. He can be blisteringly fast when given a challenging strategy, he can save his tyres like Perez without his lap times slipping, he's arguably the best overtaker out there, and his intelligence and race-management are superb.
All the GOAT stuff is ridiculous. Lewis is clearly one of the best ever but the circumstances make it impossible to compare eras.
In the 50’s and 60’s there was a distinct possibility a driver would die racing. There were far fewer races and the drivers raced in multiple formula.
The likes of Fangio, Moss, Clark, Stewart, Lauda, Prost, Senna, Schumacher etc were all great. Saying that they would be no good today is conjecture and no different from saying Lewis would have been ineffective in the 60’a and 70’s because the cars were not as complex nd circuits left no margin for error.
In the 50’s and 60’s there was a distinct possibility a driver would die racing. There were far fewer races and the drivers raced in multiple formula.
The likes of Fangio, Moss, Clark, Stewart, Lauda, Prost, Senna, Schumacher etc were all great. Saying that they would be no good today is conjecture and no different from saying Lewis would have been ineffective in the 60’a and 70’s because the cars were not as complex nd circuits left no margin for error.
There is no such thing as a GOAT, the old days were more dangerous, the skills required were far greater, the races were far fewer, meaning any records set now are largely irrelevant, so stop with the GOAT garbage as it merely shows people on here that you basically are very young and have no idea that there is any history and what that actually means.
I never said LH was not a great I merely said he is not the greatest ever as what he has achieved has largely been achieved in a dominant car with weak team mates some of the time.
but he has still achieved a staggering amount and was quick from the get go in F1, but please remember he was fairly average for a few years at McLaren a lot of fanboys seem to forget that.
I never said LH was not a great I merely said he is not the greatest ever as what he has achieved has largely been achieved in a dominant car with weak team mates some of the time.
but he has still achieved a staggering amount and was quick from the get go in F1, but please remember he was fairly average for a few years at McLaren a lot of fanboys seem to forget that.
LukeBrown66 said:
There is no such thing as a GOAT, the old days were more dangerous, the skills required were far greater, the races were far fewer, meaning any records set now are largely irrelevant, so stop with the GOAT garbage as it merely shows people on here that you basically are very young and have no idea that there is any history and what that actually means.
I never said LH was not a great I merely said he is not the greatest ever as what he has achieved has largely been achieved in a dominant car with weak team mates some of the time.
but he has still achieved a staggering amount and was quick from the get go in F1, but please remember he was fairly average for a few years at McLaren a lot of fanboys seem to forget that.
Agreed it's impossible to choose a GOAT.I never said LH was not a great I merely said he is not the greatest ever as what he has achieved has largely been achieved in a dominant car with weak team mates some of the time.
but he has still achieved a staggering amount and was quick from the get go in F1, but please remember he was fairly average for a few years at McLaren a lot of fanboys seem to forget that.
Completely disagree he was 'average' at McLaren. Excellent and in-depth article here:
https://the-race.com/formula-1/mark-hughes-what-ha...
Talk of 'fanboys' is tiresome, a lot of us posting here have been watching for many decades and have seen (in person) Villeneuve, Senna, Prost, Andretti, Mansell, etc, long before Hamilton was anywhere near F1, and are still able to accept him as at least any of their equal.
As are those within F1 who also worked with those other greats.
paulguitar said:
LukeBrown66 said:
There is no such thing as a GOAT, the old days were more dangerous, the skills required were far greater, the races were far fewer, meaning any records set now are largely irrelevant, so stop with the GOAT garbage as it merely shows people on here that you basically are very young and have no idea that there is any history and what that actually means.
I never said LH was not a great I merely said he is not the greatest ever as what he has achieved has largely been achieved in a dominant car with weak team mates some of the time.
but he has still achieved a staggering amount and was quick from the get go in F1, but please remember he was fairly average for a few years at McLaren a lot of fanboys seem to forget that.
Agreed it's impossible to choose a GOAT.I never said LH was not a great I merely said he is not the greatest ever as what he has achieved has largely been achieved in a dominant car with weak team mates some of the time.
but he has still achieved a staggering amount and was quick from the get go in F1, but please remember he was fairly average for a few years at McLaren a lot of fanboys seem to forget that.
Completely disagree he was 'average' at McLaren. Excellent and in-depth article here:
https://the-race.com/formula-1/mark-hughes-what-ha...
Talk of 'fanboys' is tiresome, a lot of us posting here have been watching for many decades and have seen (in person) Villeneuve, Senna, Prost, Andretti, Mansell, etc, long before Hamilton was anywhere near F1, and are still able to accept him as at least any of their equal.
As are those within F1 who also worked with those other greats.
Very interesting article...never seen this quote before: "...But having looked closely at Hamilton’s telemetry, Button saw things that he’d not previously believed possible and confided to his father John, “If ever he works out how to work with his engineers, the rest of us may as well go home.....” - It appears to me that the move to MB allowed Lewis "to work with his engineers" very effectively...something that McLaren are less than stellar at.
Edited by PhilAsia on Saturday 16th April 05:38
The years when they did not have a decent car, he was not outshining jenson all the time., 09n to 12
Now I know he still won races, got poles etc, but he blended into the field again and was not a dominant factor any of those years as he was after the fist merc year.
meaning he is simply just another good driver who cannot win without a good car, just like Nando and vettel
Now I know he still won races, got poles etc, but he blended into the field again and was not a dominant factor any of those years as he was after the fist merc year.
meaning he is simply just another good driver who cannot win without a good car, just like Nando and vettel
LukeBrown66 said:
The years when they did not have a decent car, he was not outshining jenson all the time., 09n to 12
Now I know he still won races, got poles etc, but he blended into the field again and was not a dominant factor any of those years as he was after the fist merc year.
meaning he is simply just another good driver who cannot win without a good car, just like Nando and vettel
Have a read of the article I posted. Here is the link:Now I know he still won races, got poles etc, but he blended into the field again and was not a dominant factor any of those years as he was after the fist merc year.
meaning he is simply just another good driver who cannot win without a good car, just like Nando and vettel
https://the-race.com/formula-1/mark-hughes-what-ha...
Of course he wasn't 'dominant' in a non-competitive car. Nobody in the entire history of the sport has ever been that, it is simply not possible. Look at Alonso in the McLaren in 2015,2015 and 2016. He was completely uncompetitive because the car wasn't competitive, that's how it works.
Do you genuinely believe anyone could be dominant in an average car?
How long have you been watching F1?
Edited by paulguitar on Saturday 16th April 09:24
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