Will Lewis ever win #8?
Discussion
LukeBrown66 said:
The years when they did not have a decent car, he was not outshining jenson all the time., 09n to 12
Now I know he still won races, got poles etc, but he blended into the field again and was not a dominant factor any of those years as he was after the fist merc year.
meaning he is simply just another good driver who cannot win without a good car, just like Nando and vettel
They were teammates 2010-2011-2012Now I know he still won races, got poles etc, but he blended into the field again and was not a dominant factor any of those years as he was after the fist merc year.
meaning he is simply just another good driver who cannot win without a good car, just like Nando and vettel
LukeBrown66 said:
The years when they did not have a decent car, he was not outshining jenson all the time., 09n to 12
Now I know he still won races, got poles etc, but he blended into the field again and was not a dominant factor any of those years as he was after the fist merc year.
meaning he is simply just another good driver who cannot win without a good car, just like Nando and vettel
No driver can win without a good car. Thanks for clarifying. Now I know he still won races, got poles etc, but he blended into the field again and was not a dominant factor any of those years as he was after the fist merc year.
meaning he is simply just another good driver who cannot win without a good car, just like Nando and vettel
paulguitar said:
LukeBrown66 said:
The years when they did not have a decent car, he was not outshining jenson all the time., 09n to 12
Now I know he still won races, got poles etc, but he blended into the field again and was not a dominant factor any of those years as he was after the fist merc year.
meaning he is simply just another good driver who cannot win without a good car, just like Nando and vettel
Have a read of the article I posted. Here is the link:Now I know he still won races, got poles etc, but he blended into the field again and was not a dominant factor any of those years as he was after the fist merc year.
meaning he is simply just another good driver who cannot win without a good car, just like Nando and vettel
https://the-race.com/formula-1/mark-hughes-what-ha...
Of course he wasn't 'dominant' in a non-competitive car. Nobody in the entire history of the sport has ever been that, it is simply not possible. Look at Alonso in the McLaren in 2015,2015 and 2016. He was completely uncompetitive because the car wasn't competitive, that's how it works.
Do you genuinely believe anyone could be dominant in an average car?
How long have you been watching F1?
Edited by paulguitar on Saturday 16th April 09:24
LukeBrown66 said:
The years when they did not have a decent car, he was not outshining jenson all the time., 09n to 12
Now I know he still won races, got poles etc, but he blended into the field again and was not a dominant factor any of those years as he was after the fist merc year.
meaning he is simply just another good driver who cannot win without a good car, just like Nando and vettel
He has won in every one of the 15 seasons he has raced. Now I know he still won races, got poles etc, but he blended into the field again and was not a dominant factor any of those years as he was after the fist merc year.
meaning he is simply just another good driver who cannot win without a good car, just like Nando and vettel
HustleRussell said:
LukeBrown66 said:
The years when they did not have a decent car, he was not outshining jenson all the time., 09n to 12
Now I know he still won races, got poles etc, but he blended into the field again and was not a dominant factor any of those years as he was after the fist merc year.
meaning he is simply just another good driver who cannot win without a good car, just like Nando and vettel
He has won in every one of the 15 seasons he has raced. Now I know he still won races, got poles etc, but he blended into the field again and was not a dominant factor any of those years as he was after the fist merc year.
meaning he is simply just another good driver who cannot win without a good car, just like Nando and vettel
LukeBrown66 said:
The years when they did not have a decent car, he was not outshining jenson all the time., 09n to 12
Now I know he still won races, got poles etc, but he blended into the field again and was not a dominant factor any of those years as he was after the fist merc year.
meaning he is simply just another good driver who cannot win without a good car, just like Nando and vettel
Hamilton won with an poor/average car in 2009-2013. Much as Schumacher did in 96 and Senna did in 93.Now I know he still won races, got poles etc, but he blended into the field again and was not a dominant factor any of those years as he was after the fist merc year.
meaning he is simply just another good driver who cannot win without a good car, just like Nando and vettel
Name a driver who has ever dominated without a good car?
HustleRussell said:
Also, did not Stewart, Clark and Moss enjoy competitive cars during the successful periods of their careers?
Very much so, Clark to probably the greatest degree. The Lotus 25 was undoubtedly the class of the field in 1963 and it’s development the 33 was the same in 65. He had a bit of a rotating cast of teammates none of whom could get near him though. He certainty won in a not entirely competitive type 43 in 66 but that had a sizeable stroke of luck or more precisely others bad luck to do so. Of course in 67 he (and Hill) had a huge car advantage but poor reliability.
From the testimony of his peers Clark was obviously revered and as ever the best driver found himself in the best cars.
LukeBrown66 said:
The years when they did not have a decent car, he was not outshining jenson all the time., 09n to 12
Now I know he still won races, got poles etc, but he blended into the field again and was not a dominant factor any of those years as he was after the fist merc year.
meaning he is simply just another good driver who cannot win without a good car, just like Nando and vettel
How do you explain his wet performances? That last wet race at Turkey, where his team mate *couldn't* keep his Merc on track and spun repeatedly, finishing 14th, Hamilton won by over half a minute. Many of Hamilton's best wins have been in the wet.Now I know he still won races, got poles etc, but he blended into the field again and was not a dominant factor any of those years as he was after the fist merc year.
meaning he is simply just another good driver who cannot win without a good car, just like Nando and vettel
Hamilton was placed into a top F1 car right from the very off, which is exceptional, and then absolutely thrived, and finished ahead in the standings of his team mate Fernando Alonso. Alonso is still regarded as one of the very best of his generation and at that time was at his peak.
Do you seriously think these are the actions of a 'good driver'?
Why would teams like McL or Merc strive to get and retain a 'good driver'? Why wouldn't they insist on the best?
In terms of GOAT - we can't compare different eras but we can very much talk of natural talent. There are four GOATs imo, in no particular order Fangio, Clark, Stewart, Hamilton. (It is pure coincidence that 3 of the 4 come from Britain). In my own opinion, I rate Senna and Schumacher next, but they would lose control of themselves on occasion and behave or drive in a manner that none of the other GOATs ever came near to doing.
From his karting days, through all his junior career, from his rookie races in F1, up to all of last season and up to his last race this year, Hamilton has *raced*.
There has barely been a dull moment. He is a fabulous, fabulous racing driver. imo He's the full package, and I've enjoyed pretty much every minute of his F1 career.
In terms of best car: Max didn't have the best car until last year, and didn't threaten the wdc before then. Charles has had a fairly error-prone career thus far, but now that he has what is currently the best car by some margin (plus the cars are slower now too), he has completely transformed as a driver.
Jim Clark won everything in a Lotus. He also lost a lot in a Lotus
. Also: Hamilton had one ordinary year in a thus far 15 year F1 career, it was also the same time as he was making the news over a sticky personal relationship he was in. He hasn't had a long-term relationship since, that I'm aware of. That suggests a very serious dedication to his sport to me.
PhilAsia said:
Plus 1
Very interesting article...never seen this quote before: "...But having looked closely at Hamilton’s telemetry, Button saw things that he’d not previously believed possible and confided to his father John, “If ever he works out how to work with his engineers, the rest of us may as well go home.....” - It appears to me that the move to MB allowed Lewis "to work with his engineers" very effectively...something that McLaren are less than stellar at.
And didn’t he lose his crew to rosberg the year his teammate won the titleVery interesting article...never seen this quote before: "...But having looked closely at Hamilton’s telemetry, Button saw things that he’d not previously believed possible and confided to his father John, “If ever he works out how to work with his engineers, the rest of us may as well go home.....” - It appears to me that the move to MB allowed Lewis "to work with his engineers" very effectively...something that McLaren are less than stellar at.
Edited by PhilAsia on Saturday 16th April 05:38
Ardennes92 said:
PhilAsia said:
Plus 1
Very interesting article...never seen this quote before: "...But having looked closely at Hamilton’s telemetry, Button saw things that he’d not previously believed possible and confided to his father John, “If ever he works out how to work with his engineers, the rest of us may as well go home.....” - It appears to me that the move to MB allowed Lewis "to work with his engineers" very effectively...something that McLaren are less than stellar at.
And didn’t he lose his crew to rosberg the year his teammate won the titleVery interesting article...never seen this quote before: "...But having looked closely at Hamilton’s telemetry, Button saw things that he’d not previously believed possible and confided to his father John, “If ever he works out how to work with his engineers, the rest of us may as well go home.....” - It appears to me that the move to MB allowed Lewis "to work with his engineers" very effectively...something that McLaren are less than stellar at.
Edited by PhilAsia on Saturday 16th April 05:38
s in not only Schumi's but, to a hugely lesser extent, Lewis' armour.In the same way Lewis deserved the 2021 WDC. It was only Masi that denied it happening.
PhilAsia said:
Yes, but I think that Nico deserved 2016. He had always hung in there with a dogged determination that showed s in not only Schumi's but, to a hugely lesser extent, Lewis' armour.
In the same way Lewis deserved the 2021 WDC. It was only Masi that denied it happening.
Well, except for the Monaco issue.....s in not only Schumi's but, to a hugely lesser extent, Lewis' armour.In the same way Lewis deserved the 2021 WDC. It was only Masi that denied it happening.
Jasandjules said:
PhilAsia said:
Yes, but I think that Nico deserved 2016. He had always hung in there with a dogged determination that showed s in not only Schumi's but, to a hugely lesser extent, Lewis' armour.
In the same way Lewis deserved the 2021 WDC. It was only Masi that denied it happening.
Well, except for the Monaco issue.....s in not only Schumi's but, to a hugely lesser extent, Lewis' armour.In the same way Lewis deserved the 2021 WDC. It was only Masi that denied it happening.
Jasandjules said:
PhilAsia said:
Yes, but I think that Nico deserved 2016. He had always hung in there with a dogged determination that showed s in not only Schumi's but, to a hugely lesser extent, Lewis' armour.
In the same way Lewis deserved the 2021 WDC. It was only Masi that denied it happening.
Well, except for the Monaco issue.....s in not only Schumi's but, to a hugely lesser extent, Lewis' armour.In the same way Lewis deserved the 2021 WDC. It was only Masi that denied it happening.
Lewis was the better driver, but Nico showed he was no slouch when competing with MS and LH.
PhilAsia said:
Yes, that was quite a dire move. I was putting forward that I felt he deserved 2016 because of his performance overall. I feel Nico''s timing was wrong. Had Lewis not been around he would have had probably 3/4 WDCs.
Lewis was the better driver, but Nico showed he was no slouch when competing with MS and LH.
Yes I think if it were not for Monaco I would say he deserved to win. But because of it, I don't feel he beat Lewis fair and square.Lewis was the better driver, but Nico showed he was no slouch when competing with MS and LH.
Jasandjules said:
PhilAsia said:
Yes, that was quite a dire move. I was putting forward that I felt he deserved 2016 because of his performance overall. I feel Nico''s timing was wrong. Had Lewis not been around he would have had probably 3/4 WDCs.
Lewis was the better driver, but Nico showed he was no slouch when competing with MS and LH.
Yes I think if it were not for Monaco I would say he deserved to win. But because of it, I don't feel he beat Lewis fair and square.Lewis was the better driver, but Nico showed he was no slouch when competing with MS and LH.
Pflanzgarten said:
PhilAsia said:
Just more proof of how much it takes to better Lewis IMHO. 2016 at Monaco and 2021 with Masi.
Well that’s a simplistic way of looking at things!2016 is less clear-cut, but not by much. Rosberg got the rub of the green but very much required it to be WDC. Nonetheless, he did get it done, which, even with his superior car reliability that year and Monaco shenanigans, was quite an achievement.
It’s impossible to view such events as deciding factors imho.
Hamilton (and Mercedes) made some glaring errors in 2021, whatever you think about Red Bulls tyre pressures early on in the season Max would likely have had an unassailable lead had his tyre not exploded at Baku nor Bottas had his brain fart in Hungary.
2016? My memory is of Hamilton having some crap luck but also some extremely poor starts. Hamilton has hinted at some nefarious goings on behind the scenes but it could have simply been down to him being destabilised with his engineering team swap around.
Did Monaco and Massi contribute? Of course but they were merely events in a wider scope.
Hamilton (and Mercedes) made some glaring errors in 2021, whatever you think about Red Bulls tyre pressures early on in the season Max would likely have had an unassailable lead had his tyre not exploded at Baku nor Bottas had his brain fart in Hungary.
2016? My memory is of Hamilton having some crap luck but also some extremely poor starts. Hamilton has hinted at some nefarious goings on behind the scenes but it could have simply been down to him being destabilised with his engineering team swap around.
Did Monaco and Massi contribute? Of course but they were merely events in a wider scope.
Pflanzgarten said:
It’s impossible to view such events as deciding factors imho.
Hamilton (and Mercedes) made some glaring errors in 2021, whatever you think about Red Bulls tyre pressures early on in the season Max would likely have had an unassailable lead had his tyre not exploded at Baku nor Bottas had his brain fart in Hungary.
The fact remains that Hamilton was about to win the 2021 title until Masi stepped in and handed it to Verstappen, whatever had occurred before that day.Hamilton (and Mercedes) made some glaring errors in 2021, whatever you think about Red Bulls tyre pressures early on in the season Max would likely have had an unassailable lead had his tyre not exploded at Baku nor Bottas had his brain fart in Hungary.
Pflanzgarten said:
2016? My memory is of Hamilton having some crap luck but also some extremely poor starts. Hamilton has hinted at some nefarious goings on behind the scenes but it could have simply been down to him being destabilised with his engineering team swap around.
Did Monaco and Massi contribute? Of course but they were merely events in a wider scope.
Agreed, that's why I referred to 2016 as less clear-cut. Hamilton definitely had some poor starts, and also some significant car failures. Nonetheless, Nico got it done, fair and square(ish).Did Monaco and Massi contribute? Of course but they were merely events in a wider scope.
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