Official 2022 Spanish Grand Prix Thread ***SPOILERS***

[Callum43]

TypeRTim said:

I don't find it bizarre at all. Hamilton made his comment within the first stint of the race. Plenty of time to go from there, anything can happen. As was seen, he managed to get to 5th place, got valuable data for the team in understanding their 'diva' of a car and got them valuable data on how the cooling works on their 'zero pod' concept.

I just think it's worth reiterating - in this era of cost caps, testing restrictions and aero that doesn't always fully correlate with the sims - any mileage is valuable.

Why do you think K-mag stayed out. Surely it wasn't worth risking the PU, circulating around plumb last? Maybe he asked the question and it didn't get broadcast, we don't know. But I would probably say the message would be "we need the data".

My entire problem with LH's comment was that as someone who has been in F1 for nearly 15 years, having been through the 2009 season with Mclaren where they had to turn around a dog of a car, he should have known that without in season testing, mileage in the real world is key for the team in understanding how the upgrades they brought to the race were working and if that correlated with what they were seeing on the computers. The aero is much more important to understand, as that will allow them to get back in to some form of championship contention, they only have a certain number of upgrades they can bring to the car through the season, so making sure they work under racing conditions (not just the FP sessions) is vital. They learned that the hard way in Miami where they showed great pace in Free Practice but that sort of disappeared come quali and the race and they didn't know why.

You are , of course , making all these observations on the assumption that , somehow , Lewis Hamilton has not learned much in his F1 career and all this would be news to him and the team .He posed a question , got the reply and got on with the job in hand . And , as with most of his recovery drives, very successfully. The only problem with any of this is of your choosing as an armchair critic

[JayK12]

TypeRTim said:

Well, as the issues were affecting both factory PUs, why wasn't George asking to retire the car?

Thick as fk or what.

[ralphrj]

FourWheelDrift said:

In before the storm, Hamilton didn't touch Perez's rear wing in parc ferme (if you see a photo it's just the frame that makes it look like it) the video is just him squeezing past avoiding contact.

https://twitter.com/LuisArochi24/status/1529029467...

I think that there is a railing behind the car (obscured by the Red Bull rear wing) and Hamilton is holding that.

Autosport published the story but have deleted it now.

[JayK12]

Perez is number 2, end of. The worst thing about it was (if you listen to his team radio on Youtube) he asked for 1 more lap before letting Max past on the 1st stint, he was told "no let him past now, if he cant get past the car ahead you'll get it back". But when he asked for Max to move as Perez was on fresh tyres and Max had DRS issues behind Russell, it was told NO.

I wonder if Perez is going to really be the submissive type, it will really be interesting over the season.

[paulguitar]

JayK12 said:

Perez is number 2, end of. The worst thing about it was (if you listen to his team radio on Youtube) he asked for 1 more lap before letting Max past on the 1st stint, he was told "no let him past now, if he cant get past the car ahead you'll get it back". But when he asked for Max to move as Perez was on fresh tyres and Max had DRS issues behind Russell, it was told NO.

I wonder if Perez is going to really be the submissive type, it will really be interesting over the season.

Perez is a lackey, he ultimately knows what he's there for. From time to time, with adrenaline high in the car, he'll sound a bit fighty, but he'll be put back in his place behind closed doors.

If there is anything clear about Red Bull it is that they are very much historically a one-driver team. Some of their behaviour in the past has been very telling, backing up the 'chosen one' (whether Verstappen or Vettel) even in clear as day episodes of wrongdoing.

[ajprice]

JayK12 said:

Perez is number 2, end of. The worst thing about it was (if you listen to his team radio on Youtube) he asked for 1 more lap before letting Max past on the 1st stint, he was told "no let him past now, if he cant get past the car ahead you'll get it back". But when he asked for Max to move as Perez was on fresh tyres and Max had DRS issues behind Russell, it was told NO.

I wonder if Perez is going to really be the submissive type, it will really be interesting over the season.

He wasn't happy, if it carries on over the year I don't think he'll make it easy. I can see him 'doing a Ricciardo' for 2023 and walking away from the church of Max. It's nice being in a fast car, but not fun at Red Bull when you're there as a clear no. 2. and not allowed to be ahead of the no. 1. Ask Ricciardo, or Mark Webber

[Hungrymc]

TypeRTim said:

Hungrymc said:

And with the issues experienced in the PU late in the race, some would criticise him for not raising the question (with all his experience, he should be mindful of these risks). We still don’t know if continuing was a good or bad decision as we don’t know the result for the PU.

So, a reasonable question, posed in a grumpy way having had his race (and counter tyre strategy) ruined, followed by a very strong drive, but maybe at a cost to come later in the season depending on the state of the PU…. I’m not sure there is a lot more to say.

Well, as the issues were affecting both factory PUs, why wasn't George asking to retire the car?

With 20/20 hindsight you could say it was possibly a decent option, but at the time he was raising the issue - there was no way to tell any of the cooling issues would crop up.

Any time someone has an issue on lap 1, should they retire the car to save the PU now?

55 seconds off the lead, a circuit not renowned for overtaking, strategy (and a set of mediums) ruined, 18 cars ahead (generally now on a better strategy). the nearest one 25/30 seconds up the road… in those circumstances, I’d say yes, a discussion about continue or retire is fine and just professional (it was however a bit grumpy in tone, not ranty and sweary, but grumpy), particularly if the team conclusion / instruction is then well executed… seems odd to see it any other way to be honest,

You’ve now started to extrapolate the actual situation into “if anyone has an issue on lap one”… You’re doing that because in the actual situation, it’s as I described it, and your logic isn’t really holding up. It’s ok to have some preferences and biases, but good to understand them and be able to try and step back and see through them.

[DanielSan]

Hungrymc said:

55 seconds off the lead, a circuit not renowned for overtaking, strategy (and a set of mediums) ruined, 18 cars ahead (generally now on a better strategy). the nearest one 25/30 seconds up the road… in those circumstances, I’d say yes, a discussion about continue or retire is fine and just professional (it was however a bit grumpy in tone, not ranty and sweary, but grumpy), particularly if the team conclusion / instruction is then well executed… seems odd to see it any other way to be honest,

You’ve now started to extrapolate the actual situation into “if anyone has an issue on lap one”… You’re doing that because in the actual situation, it’s as I described it, and your logic isn’t really holding up. It’s ok to have some preferences and biases, but good to understand them and be able to try and step back and see through them.

The discussion has to be had after a first lap like that, but it's worth running hard the race at least before making the call even if it's just to treat it as a test session. Even do a full race run, engine penalties aren't looking like they're have much of an effect on their season as they would last year and more mileage the better for that car at the moment.

[Hungrymc]

Which is what they decided to do.

There was talk about the very question being enormously disrespectful to the team… lol

[TypeRTim]

Hungrymc said:

TypeRTim said:

Hungrymc said:

And with the issues experienced in the PU late in the race, some would criticise him for not raising the question (with all his experience, he should be mindful of these risks). We still don’t know if continuing was a good or bad decision as we don’t know the result for the PU.

So, a reasonable question, posed in a grumpy way having had his race (and counter tyre strategy) ruined, followed by a very strong drive, but maybe at a cost to come later in the season depending on the state of the PU…. I’m not sure there is a lot more to say.

Well, as the issues were affecting both factory PUs, why wasn't George asking to retire the car?

With 20/20 hindsight you could say it was possibly a decent option, but at the time he was raising the issue - there was no way to tell any of the cooling issues would crop up.

Any time someone has an issue on lap 1, should they retire the car to save the PU now?

55 seconds off the lead, a circuit not renowned for overtaking, strategy (and a set of mediums) ruined, 18 cars ahead (generally now on a better strategy). the nearest one 25/30 seconds up the road… in those circumstances, I’d say yes, a discussion about continue or retire is fine and just professional (it was however a bit grumpy in tone, not ranty and sweary, but grumpy), particularly if the team conclusion / instruction is then well executed… seems odd to see it any other way to be honest,

You’ve now started to extrapolate the actual situation into “if anyone has an issue on lap one”… You’re doing that because in the actual situation, it’s as I described it, and your logic isn’t really holding up. It’s ok to have some preferences and biases, but good to understand them and be able to try and step back and see through them.

Here is the point I'm making. As you accept, he made the comment in a grumpy, despondant tone. Not what I would want from a 7x WDC driving for me. It's a lap one incident, his ORIGINAL strategy was completely ruined BUT, the freedom of being at the back and in clear air opens up many other strategies that would otherwise be sub-optimal or not even considered from where he started the race. There was so much more to gain from continuing than there would be from retiring. If the team had deemed it necessary or prudent to retire, just do it at the stop to fix the puncture.

If this incident, or a similar one, had happened 30 or 40 laps in to the race, I would have much more sympathy for him making the suggestion.

As it was, as I have repeatedly said and praised him for, he got his head down, got on with it and salvaged a great result from a poor situation, giving the team plenty of valuable miles and heaps and heaps of data (not to mention points)

My point on the extrapolation is that my criticism is that he made his 'suggestion' not long after a lap one incident and people are praising him for it and saying he has great insight. So does that mean any lap one incident where you go from in the mid points to the back, it would be a good idea to retire the car to save the PU mileage? Or just when certain drivers make the decision.

I'm not the only person with a bias on here.

[TypeRTim]

JayK12 said:

TypeRTim said:

Well, as the issues were affecting both factory PUs, why wasn't George asking to retire the car?

Thick as fk or what.

sarcasm detector failure...

[TypeRTim]

Hungrymc said:

Which is what they decided to do.

There was talk about the very question being enormously disrespectful to the team… lol

Hope that wasn't aimed at me - I never suggested that.

[HighwayStar]

TypeRTim said:

Hungrymc said:

Which is what they decided to do.

There was talk about the very question being enormously disrespectful to the team… lol

Hope that wasn't aimed at me - I never suggested that.

That was Remy I believe…

This has just popped up, Lewis has had his say
https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/lewis-hamilton-...

[Hungrymc]

TypeRTim said:

Hungrymc said:

And with the issues experienced in the PU late in the race, some would criticise him for not raising the question (with all his experience, he should be mindful of these risks). We still don’t know if continuing was a good or bad decision as we don’t know the result for the PU.

So, a reasonable question, posed in a grumpy way having had his race (and counter tyre strategy) ruined, followed by a very strong drive, but maybe at a cost to come later in the season depending on the state of the PU…. I’m not sure there is a lot more to say.

Well, as the issues were affecting both factory PUs, why wasn't George asking to retire the car?

With 20/20 hindsight you could say it was possibly a decent option, but at the time he was raising the issue - there was no way to tell any of the cooling issues would crop up.

Any time someone has an issue on lap 1, should they retire the car to save the PU now?

Sorry, I thought you were saying it was a bad suggestion / discussion, hence the extrapolating to ‘any lap 1 issue should retire’

Seems we agree it was an appropriate discussion, but raised in a grumpy way. And probably the right call / response from the team... I’m ok with that,

TypeRTim said:

Here is the point I'm making. As you accept, he made the comment in a grumpy, despondant tone. Not what I would want from a 7x WDC driving for me.

I thought your point was it shouldn’t have even been discussed from your earlier post. But if you think the tone of the radio message was particularly noteworthy, that’s your prerogative,

[Nova Gyna]

paulguitar said:

JayK12 said:

Perez is number 2, end of. The worst thing about it was (if you listen to his team radio on Youtube) he asked for 1 more lap before letting Max past on the 1st stint, he was told "no let him past now, if he cant get past the car ahead you'll get it back". But when he asked for Max to move as Perez was on fresh tyres and Max had DRS issues behind Russell, it was told NO.

I wonder if Perez is going to really be the submissive type, it will really be interesting over the season.

Perez is a lackey, he ultimately knows what he's there for. From time to time, with adrenaline high in the car, he'll sound a bit fighty, but he'll be put back in his place behind closed doors.

If there is anything clear about Red Bull it is that they are very much historically a one-driver team. Some of their behaviour in the past has been very telling, backing up the 'chosen one' (whether Verstappen or Vettel) even in clear as day episodes of wrongdoing.

Yeah, I agree. I'm sure Perez went in with his eyes wide open, knowing exactly what his role in the team would be. 

Let's not forget that Darth Marko's precognitive abilities are still all powerful despite being 700 years young. He won’t hesitate to put Perez back in his box before he becomes too uppity.

[TheDeuce]

jsf said:

TheDeuce said:

I work in films and drones these days generally are a cut price replacement for heli shots.. I can see what the F1 accountants were thinking. But for high speed stuff they suck.

70mph tops for a drone with a decent payload, and they lose stability at that speed and obviously have to bank to turn - and the weight doesn't afford a camera with stability management.

Give it another decade and I expect every GP will have a load of them tracking whatever car the director chooses. It's just a bit too soon. They tried, it failed.

I did some filming for a BBC documentary a couple of years ago with one of the F1 cars i ran, they had a couple of cutting edge drones do what would have traditionally been done via helicopter. They were mighty impressive.

One shot we did had the F1 car flat out and the drone flat out head on just a few feet over the car, looked amazing, zero chance you would risk that in a race.

We were filming at Anglesey circuit, the most impressive footage was from flying the drone in from out at sea then onto the circuit over the car, quite spectacular. It looked miles better than the footage in Spain.

Yes, for arranged shots they're fantastic. They've seriously raised the production values of many documentaries etc that could never afford a helicopter. You can also send them places you can't send a helicopter..

I do believe it's only a matter of time until they're a big part of how we view F1. What we saw on Sunday was pretty tragic but with the right drones working in unison to track the cats with some decent AI to manage it all... It'll happen. I'm sure there are tech firms thinking about what they could offer as an official F1 supplier deal.

[speedking31]

TheDeuce said:

I work in films and drones these days generally are a cut price replacement for heli shots.. I can see what the F1 accountants were thinking. But for high speed stuff they suck.

70mph tops for a drone with a decent payload, and they lose stability at that speed and obviously have to bank to turn - and the weight doesn't afford a camera with stability management.

Give it another decade and I expect every GP will have a load of them tracking whatever car the director chooses. It's just a bit too soon. They tried, it failed.

I quite like what they do in the WRC coverage where they park the drone over a bend, or fly the same pre-defined path, and then overlay the resulting footage from 2 cars to show their different approach/line/speed etc. Admittedly not live stream, but can reveal more to aid analysis than just 'pretty' pictures.

[ajprice]

speedking31 said:

quite like what they do in the WRC coverage where they park the drone over a bend, or fly the same pre-defined path, and then overlay the resulting footage from 2 cars to show their different approach/line/speed etc. Admittedly not live stream, but can reveal more to aid analysis than just 'pretty' pictures.

In the W series race at Miami (I think the first race on Saturday), they had an overhead camera shot facing straight down over a corner. Kimilainen and another car made contact and some carbon broke off the cars. From the regular camera it looked like a 2 into 1 coming together, from they overhead that was played I. The end credits, you could see Kimilainens car get the tail out into the front wing of the other car. It was a good angle to see it top down. No idea if it was a drone or a static camera though.

[TheDeuce]

ajprice said:

speedking31 said:

quite like what they do in the WRC coverage where they park the drone over a bend, or fly the same pre-defined path, and then overlay the resulting footage from 2 cars to show their different approach/line/speed etc. Admittedly not live stream, but can reveal more to aid analysis than just 'pretty' pictures.

In the W series race at Miami (I think the first race on Saturday), they had an overhead camera shot facing straight down over a corner. Kimilainen and another car made contact and some carbon broke off the cars. From the regular camera it looked like a 2 into 1 coming together, from they overhead that was played I. The end credits, you could see Kimilainens car get the tail out into the front wing of the other car. It was a good angle to see it top down. No idea if it was a drone or a static camera though.

That's the potential, to have them hover over key sections and track cars as they pass beneath. Three drones per spot working in rotation to charge, leaving one always in the air.

Based on Sunday it looked as if the drone wasn't allowed over the track itself, which seems like a compromise given their use in other series. I've no idea why not, they're incredibly safe. It might be that it was under manual control which isn't as safe - but even then if the operator hits the abort button they'll move back a predetermined path back to the landing spot.

Anyway, with the right AI and an enough drones a lot of F1 camera operators might find their services no longer required.. probably a little way off that still.

[carl_w]

TheDeuce said:

Based on Sunday it looked as if the drone wasn't allowed over the track itself, which seems like a compromise given their use in other series. I've no idea why not, they're incredibly safe. It might be that it was under manual control which isn't as safe - but even then if the operator hits the abort button they'll move back a predetermined path back to the landing spot.

Not sure but here in the UK, Motorsport UK's drone policy prohibits overflying "the competition course (track or stage), assembly areas, spectator/public areas, paddocks and service areas"