Would the Halo have prevented historic F1 driver fatalities?
Discussion
DOCG said:
Why spend so much money researching and developing the halo rather than going to closed-cockpit design altogether? Why not just put a full canopy over the cockpit? Surely this would be much better aerodynamically as well as in regards to safety.
Because it makes it much more difficult to extract the driver in a fire or rollover, especially given the canopy would have to be very tough to withstand the aerodynamic loads at 200mphChemicalChaos said:
Because it makes it much more difficult to extract the driver in a fire or rollover, especially given the canopy would have to be very tough to withstand the aerodynamic loads at 200mph
It could easily be done if the design of F1 cars was changed to become more similar to something like LMP1 cars.DOCG said:
ChemicalChaos said:
Because it makes it much more difficult to extract the driver in a fire or rollover, especially given the canopy would have to be very tough to withstand the aerodynamic loads at 200mph
It could easily be done if the design of F1 cars was changed to become more similar to something like LMP1 cars.I witnessed this.
More graphic pics available if reqd
I can't believe he walked out of that.
Edited by Jenny Tailor on Tuesday 31st May 21:08
ChemicalChaos said:
DOCG said:
Why spend so much money researching and developing the halo rather than going to closed-cockpit design altogether? Why not just put a full canopy over the cockpit? Surely this would be much better aerodynamically as well as in regards to safety.
Because it makes it much more difficult to extract the driver in a fire or rollover, especially given the canopy would have to be very tough to withstand the aerodynamic loads at 200mphhttps://youtube.com/watch?v=6D2clbvS1L0
I can’t be the only one, thinking that at some point there’s going to be a serious burn injury (or worse) in Indycar?
Jenny Tailor said:
DOCG said:
ChemicalChaos said:
Because it makes it much more difficult to extract the driver in a fire or rollover, especially given the canopy would have to be very tough to withstand the aerodynamic loads at 200mph
It could easily be done if the design of F1 cars was changed to become more similar to something like LMP1 cars.I witnessed this.
More graphic pics available if reqd
I can't believe he walked out of that.
DOCG said:
It could easily be done if the design of F1 cars was changed to become more similar to something like LMP1 cars.
...and that's why they shouldn't go to closed canopies. LMP1 already exists. Formula racing is open wheel and open cockpit. Halo has contributed to safety and saved lives already, without re-inventing the formula. I have not known a driver to be deterred from F1 by halo, but I have heard drivers mention aeroscreen as a drawback in Indycar. I was not particularly a fan of halo when introduced but the more years that go by and the more incidents I see, the more I am convinced that it is exactly the right solution.
HustleRussell said:
...and that's why they shouldn't go to closed canopies. LMP1 already exists. Formula racing is open wheel and open cockpit. Halo has contributed to safety and saved lives already, without re-inventing the formula. I have not known a driver to be deterred from F1 by halo, but I have heard drivers mention aeroscreen as a drawback in Indycar.
I was not particularly a fan of halo when introduced but the more years that go by and the more incidents I see, the more I am convinced that it is exactly the right solution.
I do think the formula should be reinvented somewhat, F1 is supposed to be the pinnacle of motorsport yet it has such things as exposed wheels which are ridiculously bad for aerodynamics. The halo is basically making a transition away from being fully open-cockpit, why not go all the way if that would make the cars both safer and more aerodynamic? I was not particularly a fan of halo when introduced but the more years that go by and the more incidents I see, the more I am convinced that it is exactly the right solution.
Open wheels and cockpits are just a relic from a time when aerodynamics were very poorly understood, I don't see the benefit of having them as the current formula.
F1 is supposed to be the pinnacle of motorsport yet the Porsche 919 Evo smashed the F1 record lap record around Spa, clearly F1 would be a lot faster if the formula was evolved.
DOCG said:
HustleRussell said:
...and that's why they shouldn't go to closed canopies. LMP1 already exists. Formula racing is open wheel and open cockpit. Halo has contributed to safety and saved lives already, without re-inventing the formula. I have not known a driver to be deterred from F1 by halo, but I have heard drivers mention aeroscreen as a drawback in Indycar.
I was not particularly a fan of halo when introduced but the more years that go by and the more incidents I see, the more I am convinced that it is exactly the right solution.
I do think the formula should be reinvented somewhat, F1 is supposed to be the pinnacle of motorsport yet it has such things as exposed wheels which are ridiculously bad for aerodynamics. The halo is basically making a transition away from being fully open-cockpit, why not go all the way if that would make the cars both safer and more aerodynamic? I was not particularly a fan of halo when introduced but the more years that go by and the more incidents I see, the more I am convinced that it is exactly the right solution.
Open wheels and cockpits are just a relic from a time when aerodynamics were very poorly understood, I don't see the benefit of having them as the current formula.
F1 is supposed to be the pinnacle of motorsport yet the Porsche 919 Evo smashed the F1 record lap record around Spa, clearly F1 would be a lot faster if the formula was evolved.
The only issue is that if it were real, anyone driving it would either die, or pass out - and then die very shortly afterwards.
The problem is that we can now easily build cars so fast in every way that the fleshy lump behind the wheel wouldn't be able to cope. Both with regard to the weak human body and also the speed of the brain.
So the ultimate racecar would need to be AI controlled. Be careful what you wish for!
TheDeuce said:
Adrian newey created that concept 'ultimate' racing car a few years back. It achieves everything you suggest by re-writing the rules of what the ultimate formula should be.
The only issue is that if it were real, anyone driving it would either die, or pass out - and then die very shortly afterwards.
The problem is that we can now easily build cars so fast in every way that the fleshy lump behind the wheel wouldn't be able to cope. Both with regard to the weak human body and also the speed of the brain.
So the ultimate racecar would need to be AI controlled. Be careful what you wish for!
Are you referring to the Red Bull X2010 designed for the Gran Turismo game?The only issue is that if it were real, anyone driving it would either die, or pass out - and then die very shortly afterwards.
The problem is that we can now easily build cars so fast in every way that the fleshy lump behind the wheel wouldn't be able to cope. Both with regard to the weak human body and also the speed of the brain.
So the ultimate racecar would need to be AI controlled. Be careful what you wish for!
I think F1 could be quite a bit faster before G-forces reach dangerous levels. Maybe 15 seconds a lap faster at Spa.
DOCG said:
TheDeuce said:
Adrian newey created that concept 'ultimate' racing car a few years back. It achieves everything you suggest by re-writing the rules of what the ultimate formula should be.
The only issue is that if it were real, anyone driving it would either die, or pass out - and then die very shortly afterwards.
The problem is that we can now easily build cars so fast in every way that the fleshy lump behind the wheel wouldn't be able to cope. Both with regard to the weak human body and also the speed of the brain.
So the ultimate racecar would need to be AI controlled. Be careful what you wish for!
Are you referring to the Red Bull X2010 designed for the Gran Turismo game?The only issue is that if it were real, anyone driving it would either die, or pass out - and then die very shortly afterwards.
The problem is that we can now easily build cars so fast in every way that the fleshy lump behind the wheel wouldn't be able to cope. Both with regard to the weak human body and also the speed of the brain.
So the ultimate racecar would need to be AI controlled. Be careful what you wish for!
I think F1 could be quite a bit faster before G-forces reach dangerous levels. Maybe 15 seconds a lap faster at Spa.
The cars were getting pretty quick prior to the partial floor removal in 2021. They were sort of as fast in a different way in the V10 era. There seems to be a hard limit in the view of the FIA as to how fast they're allowed to become before getting beaten back with new regs.
I'm sure the drivers could cope with -15 seconds a lap at spa but some other circuits would then become dangerously fast perhaps? And anyway, if you release new regs designed to make the cars 15 seconds faster, within two years they'll be 20 seconds faster, then faster still each new car season.
F1 cars have been held back deliberately by regs for a very long time now. As such, they may as well stay open wheel for the sake of continuity. Even if they were allowed a more efficient design they'd be pegged back in some other way.
DOCG said:
I do think the formula should be reinvented somewhat, F1 is supposed to be the pinnacle of motorsport yet it has such things as exposed wheels which are ridiculously bad for aerodynamics. The halo is basically making a transition away from being fully open-cockpit, why not go all the way if that would make the cars both safer and more aerodynamic?
Open wheels and cockpits are just a relic from a time when aerodynamics were very poorly understood, I don't see the benefit of having them as the current formula.
F1 is supposed to be the pinnacle of motorsport yet the Porsche 919 Evo smashed the F1 record lap record around Spa, clearly F1 would be a lot faster if the formula was evolved.
F1 got their Spa lap record back the following year. The 919 Nordschliefe record, on the other hand…Open wheels and cockpits are just a relic from a time when aerodynamics were very poorly understood, I don't see the benefit of having them as the current formula.
F1 is supposed to be the pinnacle of motorsport yet the Porsche 919 Evo smashed the F1 record lap record around Spa, clearly F1 would be a lot faster if the formula was evolved.
The 919 Evo showed what the LMP1 engineers can do with no rules, which was an awesome engineering exercise.
An F1 team, given the same lack of restrictions and a reasonable budget would be able to make the car go a lot faster. They’d be on active suspension, and with plenty of moving aerodynamic parts. The rule-makers keep reining them in, because they don’t want the cars to be too fast for the circuits - as we see at Monaco. The current formula is very restrictive, and the rules were written for the first time by a former F1 technical director, alongside a team of former F1 brains trying to close up all the loopholes.
DOCG said:
HustleRussell said:
...and that's why they shouldn't go to closed canopies. LMP1 already exists. Formula racing is open wheel and open cockpit. Halo has contributed to safety and saved lives already, without re-inventing the formula. I have not known a driver to be deterred from F1 by halo, but I have heard drivers mention aeroscreen as a drawback in Indycar.
I was not particularly a fan of halo when introduced but the more years that go by and the more incidents I see, the more I am convinced that it is exactly the right solution.
I do think the formula should be reinvented somewhat, F1 is supposed to be the pinnacle of motorsport yet it has such things as exposed wheels which are ridiculously bad for aerodynamics. The halo is basically making a transition away from being fully open-cockpit, why not go all the way if that would make the cars both safer and more aerodynamic? I was not particularly a fan of halo when introduced but the more years that go by and the more incidents I see, the more I am convinced that it is exactly the right solution.
Open wheels and cockpits are just a relic from a time when aerodynamics were very poorly understood, I don't see the benefit of having them as the current formula.
F1 is supposed to be the pinnacle of motorsport yet the Porsche 919 Evo smashed the F1 record lap record around Spa, clearly F1 would be a lot faster if the formula was evolved.
IMO Aero is the ‘problem’ not the solution. How would we ever get rid of DRS if the cars become ever more dependant on aerodynamic efficiency? The drivers are commenting this year that the cars follow better but the slipstream effect is reduced.
Why is Caterham racing about the best racing you can see?
Now that the dirty air situation is being addressed I’d actually like to see the cars become more draggy. There may be an opportunity to bring the slipstream back.
I don’t know why you’d want F1 to become like any other endurance / prototype series which nobody watches. F1 is about as good as it’s ever been, and with a few tweeks could be even better without becoming something else entirely.
I don't think its entirely fair to put the halo on a pedestal, silver bullet. Safety is complex cascade of different elements, protocols, components.
Prof Sid Watkin's 'Life at the Limit' is well worth reading. In the appendix it notes that driver extraction training was mandated as late as 1990. Not many track personnel knew how to undo a that you had to cut the chin strap off the helmet to get it off which ironically could have caused subsequent spinal damage.
I revisited Elio de Angelis's accident and was reminded and horrified by the appointed fire marshals who did not know how to use fire extinguishers! Or the scene of Patrick Depailler's death: the armco was laid to rest waiting to be built up for the upcoming French Grand Prix.
Prof Sid Watkin's 'Life at the Limit' is well worth reading. In the appendix it notes that driver extraction training was mandated as late as 1990. Not many track personnel knew how to undo a that you had to cut the chin strap off the helmet to get it off which ironically could have caused subsequent spinal damage.
I revisited Elio de Angelis's accident and was reminded and horrified by the appointed fire marshals who did not know how to use fire extinguishers! Or the scene of Patrick Depailler's death: the armco was laid to rest waiting to be built up for the upcoming French Grand Prix.
Gassing Station | Formula 1 | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff