The Official F1 2023 silly season *contains speculation*
Discussion
Leithen said:
Puddenchucker said:
Surely not? That's what Cadillac was accused of intending to do....
MissChief said:
Leithen said:
Puddenchucker said:
Surely not? That's what Cadillac was accused of intending to do....
KaraK said:
Probably not - and likely because there's some distinctions there. Andretti tying in with Cadillac felt like a cynical an attempt to gain credibility for the bid "F1 wants manufacturers so here's the same thing we said before but with a Cadillac badge on it" whereas by any metric Red Bull have already established themselves as a credible F1 team. Ford's purported involvement, whether that's money and a blue oval stuck on a 100% RBPT engine or a full PU developed in house doesn't change that in the slightest, it wouldn't be the first time that RBR did some car manufacturer based sponsorship and I doubt it would be the last.
If only Franz Kafka was alive today and interested in motorsport...Andretti lack credibility because they haven't already established themselves as a credible F1 team.
Come on, this is pure F1 hypocrisy. By any measure Andretti are the most credible new potential entrant that F1 has seen in years if not decades. Cadillac just handed Porsche (Red Bull's earlier possible badging powertrain collaborator) and Penske their arse in the Daytona 24hrs. It's one rule for the boys and another for everyone else.
Leithen said:
KaraK said:
Probably not - and likely because there's some distinctions there. Andretti tying in with Cadillac felt like a cynical an attempt to gain credibility for the bid "F1 wants manufacturers so here's the same thing we said before but with a Cadillac badge on it" whereas by any metric Red Bull have already established themselves as a credible F1 team. Ford's purported involvement, whether that's money and a blue oval stuck on a 100% RBPT engine or a full PU developed in house doesn't change that in the slightest, it wouldn't be the first time that RBR did some car manufacturer based sponsorship and I doubt it would be the last.
If only Franz Kafka was alive today and interested in motorsport...Andretti lack credibility because they haven't already established themselves as a credible F1 team.
Come on, this is pure F1 hypocrisy. By any measure Andretti are the most credible new potential entrant that F1 has seen in years if not decades. Cadillac just handed Porsche (Red Bull's earlier possible badging powertrain collaborator) and Penske their arse in the Daytona 24hrs. It's one rule for the boys and another for everyone else.
You're right however in that the way "credibility" bar for existing teams vs new potential entrants works is different - but how could it not be? It's like the difference between someone going for a job interview vs the person who is already employed in a similar role at the company. The interviewee has to jump through all kinds of hoops to try and demonstrate that they will be able to do the job, the employee just turns up does the work and goes home.
KaraK said:
Leithen said:
KaraK said:
Probably not - and likely because there's some distinctions there. Andretti tying in with Cadillac felt like a cynical an attempt to gain credibility for the bid "F1 wants manufacturers so here's the same thing we said before but with a Cadillac badge on it" whereas by any metric Red Bull have already established themselves as a credible F1 team. Ford's purported involvement, whether that's money and a blue oval stuck on a 100% RBPT engine or a full PU developed in house doesn't change that in the slightest, it wouldn't be the first time that RBR did some car manufacturer based sponsorship and I doubt it would be the last.
If only Franz Kafka was alive today and interested in motorsport...Andretti lack credibility because they haven't already established themselves as a credible F1 team.
Come on, this is pure F1 hypocrisy. By any measure Andretti are the most credible new potential entrant that F1 has seen in years if not decades. Cadillac just handed Porsche (Red Bull's earlier possible badging powertrain collaborator) and Penske their arse in the Daytona 24hrs. It's one rule for the boys and another for everyone else.
You're right however in that the way "credibility" bar for existing teams vs new potential entrants works is different - but how could it not be? It's like the difference between someone going for a job interview vs the person who is already employed in a similar role at the company. The interviewee has to jump through all kinds of hoops to try and demonstrate that they will be able to do the job, the employee just turns up does the work and goes home.
As things stand we have 3 elite teams with most of the rest being junior teams of those 3 in some way, can anyone honestly say they expect Haas for example to be battling for championships any time soon? They might come close but ultimately they will be beholden to whoever is supplying their engines or whose driver they are running.
F1 needs to diversify the gene pool or risk becoming a boring stagnant commercial swamp.
KaraK said:
Personally I'm not anti-Andretti at all, and I'm sorry if I gave that impression. As a fan I'm all for them joining the grid even as I can see why the teams don't want them to. I'm just suggesting why I think the F1 sphere in general wouldn't treat those two cases as being the same thing.
You're right however in that the way "credibility" bar for existing teams vs new potential entrants works is different - but how could it not be? It's like the difference between someone going for a job interview vs the person who is already employed in a similar role at the company. The interviewee has to jump through all kinds of hoops to try and demonstrate that they will be able to do the job, the employee just turns up does the work and goes home.
Don't be sorry - you are entirely correct that the F1 teams will use their incumbent status to try and prevent new entrants. They have been remarkably open and honest about their motives - it's about money, not competition. They appear to believe that because they have taken risks and invested in their operations that entitles them to choose their competitors. You're right however in that the way "credibility" bar for existing teams vs new potential entrants works is different - but how could it not be? It's like the difference between someone going for a job interview vs the person who is already employed in a similar role at the company. The interviewee has to jump through all kinds of hoops to try and demonstrate that they will be able to do the job, the employee just turns up does the work and goes home.
The irony is that the cost-cap should have made it easier for new entrants. Instead it has increased the value of the existing operations, and given the terms of the most recent Concorde Agreement, allowed them to close the doors. Liberty control access to the sport which prevents most journalists from criticising the status quo too much.
I hope WEC and IMSA goes from strength to strength and Indycar continues to thrive. Perhaps only then will certain individuals in F1 realise that they have shot themselves in their collective feet.
Leithen said:
If only Franz Kafka was alive today and interested in motorsport...
Andretti lack credibility because they haven't already established themselves as a credible F1 team.
Come on, this is pure F1 hypocrisy. By any measure Andretti are the most credible new potential entrant that F1 has seen in years if not decades. Cadillac just handed Porsche (Red Bull's earlier possible badging powertrain collaborator) and Penske their arse in the Daytona 24hrs. It's one rule for the boys and another for everyone else.
Nail on the head. Andretti have done everything they have been asked to do to put a credible, stable entry together. I'd have more respect for the other teams if they just came out with a statement saying they didn't want Andretti in because they don't want the pot diluted. The Red Bull/Ford tie up is good news for Andretti. Andretti lack credibility because they haven't already established themselves as a credible F1 team.
Come on, this is pure F1 hypocrisy. By any measure Andretti are the most credible new potential entrant that F1 has seen in years if not decades. Cadillac just handed Porsche (Red Bull's earlier possible badging powertrain collaborator) and Penske their arse in the Daytona 24hrs. It's one rule for the boys and another for everyone else.
Leithen said:
KaraK said:
Personally I'm not anti-Andretti at all, and I'm sorry if I gave that impression. As a fan I'm all for them joining the grid even as I can see why the teams don't want them to. I'm just suggesting why I think the F1 sphere in general wouldn't treat those two cases as being the same thing.
You're right however in that the way "credibility" bar for existing teams vs new potential entrants works is different - but how could it not be? It's like the difference between someone going for a job interview vs the person who is already employed in a similar role at the company. The interviewee has to jump through all kinds of hoops to try and demonstrate that they will be able to do the job, the employee just turns up does the work and goes home.
Don't be sorry - you are entirely correct that the F1 teams will use their incumbent status to try and prevent new entrants. They have been remarkably open and honest about their motives - it's about money, not competition. They appear to believe that because they have taken risks and invested in their operations IN THE PAST* that entitles them to choose their competitors. You're right however in that the way "credibility" bar for existing teams vs new potential entrants works is different - but how could it not be? It's like the difference between someone going for a job interview vs the person who is already employed in a similar role at the company. The interviewee has to jump through all kinds of hoops to try and demonstrate that they will be able to do the job, the employee just turns up does the work and goes home.
The irony is that the cost-cap should have made it easier for new entrants. Instead it has increased the value of the existing operations, and given the terms of the most recent Concorde Agreement, allowed them to close the doors. Liberty control access to the sport which prevents most journalists from criticising the status quo too much.
I hope WEC and IMSA goes from strength to strength and Indycar continues to thrive. Perhaps only then will certain individuals in F1 realise that they have shot themselves in their collective feet.
- my edit
Jinba Ittai said:
Leithen said:
If only Franz Kafka was alive today and interested in motorsport...
Andretti lack credibility because they haven't already established themselves as a credible F1 team.
Come on, this is pure F1 hypocrisy. By any measure Andretti are the most credible new potential entrant that F1 has seen in years if not decades. Cadillac just handed Porsche (Red Bull's earlier possible badging powertrain collaborator) and Penske their arse in the Daytona 24hrs. It's one rule for the boys and another for everyone else.
Nail on the head. Andretti have done everything they have been asked to do to put a credible, stable entry together. I'd have more respect for the other teams if they just came out with a statement saying they didn't want Andretti in because they don't want the pot diluted. The Red Bull/Ford tie up is good news for Andretti. Andretti lack credibility because they haven't already established themselves as a credible F1 team.
Come on, this is pure F1 hypocrisy. By any measure Andretti are the most credible new potential entrant that F1 has seen in years if not decades. Cadillac just handed Porsche (Red Bull's earlier possible badging powertrain collaborator) and Penske their arse in the Daytona 24hrs. It's one rule for the boys and another for everyone else.
Mark-C said:
I think Acura handed both Cadillac, Porsche and BMW their arses at Daytona. Maybe Acura should get into F1 using their Global branding
Nip and tuck between Inevitable that US based manufacturers would want to be involved in a US owned sport.
Ford seem to have done the ultimate no risk effort. Join the dominant team and pretty much win with the ford badge on a car right away. The cadillac thing sounds a bit pointless now as they will just tool around at the back if Andretti get on the grid.
Wondering how once again Honda have got themselves in a fix. How much know how was transferred to Red bull?
If honda come back it will be back to square one again with a backmarker team. Maybe thats what they want and its just a process to bring another generation of engineers along.
Mind you the new rules were supposed to make everyone more equal. No sigh of it so far.
Ford seem to have done the ultimate no risk effort. Join the dominant team and pretty much win with the ford badge on a car right away. The cadillac thing sounds a bit pointless now as they will just tool around at the back if Andretti get on the grid.
Wondering how once again Honda have got themselves in a fix. How much know how was transferred to Red bull?
If honda come back it will be back to square one again with a backmarker team. Maybe thats what they want and its just a process to bring another generation of engineers along.
Mind you the new rules were supposed to make everyone more equal. No sigh of it so far.
Killer2005 said:
The article went live half an hour before the Red Bull launch...ajprice said:
Killer2005 said:
The article went live half an hour before the Red Bull launch...Fundoreen said:
Inevitable that US based manufacturers would want to be involved in a US owned sport.
Ford seem to have done the ultimate no risk effort. Join the dominant team and pretty much win with the ford badge on a car right away. The cadillac thing sounds a bit pointless now as they will just tool around at the back if Andretti get on the grid.
Wondering how once again Honda have got themselves in a fix. How much know how was transferred to Red bull?
If honda come back it will be back to square one again with a backmarker team. Maybe thats what they want and its just a process to bring another generation of engineers along.
Mind you the new rules were supposed to make everyone more equal. No sigh of it so far.
Would it be the biggest shock if Honda joined Mclaren again? Rumours seem to suggest Honda do want to continue into 26, Mclaren will only progress so far whilst remaining as a customer team. The toxic side of the previous relationship has mostly disappeared and of the teams on the grid they'd surely be the most credible competitive option. Ford seem to have done the ultimate no risk effort. Join the dominant team and pretty much win with the ford badge on a car right away. The cadillac thing sounds a bit pointless now as they will just tool around at the back if Andretti get on the grid.
Wondering how once again Honda have got themselves in a fix. How much know how was transferred to Red bull?
If honda come back it will be back to square one again with a backmarker team. Maybe thats what they want and its just a process to bring another generation of engineers along.
Mind you the new rules were supposed to make everyone more equal. No sigh of it so far.
Mark-C said:
ajprice said:
Killer2005 said:
The article went live half an hour before the Red Bull launch...DanielSan said:
Fundoreen said:
Inevitable that US based manufacturers would want to be involved in a US owned sport.
Ford seem to have done the ultimate no risk effort. Join the dominant team and pretty much win with the ford badge on a car right away. The cadillac thing sounds a bit pointless now as they will just tool around at the back if Andretti get on the grid.
Wondering how once again Honda have got themselves in a fix. How much know how was transferred to Red bull?
If honda come back it will be back to square one again with a backmarker team. Maybe thats what they want and its just a process to bring another generation of engineers along.
Mind you the new rules were supposed to make everyone more equal. No sigh of it so far.
Would it be the biggest shock if Honda joined Mclaren again? Rumours seem to suggest Honda do want to continue into 26, Mclaren will only progress so far whilst remaining as a customer team. The toxic side of the previous relationship has mostly disappeared and of the teams on the grid they'd surely be the most credible competitive option. Ford seem to have done the ultimate no risk effort. Join the dominant team and pretty much win with the ford badge on a car right away. The cadillac thing sounds a bit pointless now as they will just tool around at the back if Andretti get on the grid.
Wondering how once again Honda have got themselves in a fix. How much know how was transferred to Red bull?
If honda come back it will be back to square one again with a backmarker team. Maybe thats what they want and its just a process to bring another generation of engineers along.
Mind you the new rules were supposed to make everyone more equal. No sigh of it so far.
McLaren are way behind merc, for me they need to be snapping at the heels before they can consider changing PU supplier to become a works team
andburg said:
DanielSan said:
Fundoreen said:
Inevitable that US based manufacturers would want to be involved in a US owned sport.
Ford seem to have done the ultimate no risk effort. Join the dominant team and pretty much win with the ford badge on a car right away. The cadillac thing sounds a bit pointless now as they will just tool around at the back if Andretti get on the grid.
Wondering how once again Honda have got themselves in a fix. How much know how was transferred to Red bull?
If honda come back it will be back to square one again with a backmarker team. Maybe thats what they want and its just a process to bring another generation of engineers along.
Mind you the new rules were supposed to make everyone more equal. No sigh of it so far.
Would it be the biggest shock if Honda joined Mclaren again? Rumours seem to suggest Honda do want to continue into 26, Mclaren will only progress so far whilst remaining as a customer team. The toxic side of the previous relationship has mostly disappeared and of the teams on the grid they'd surely be the most credible competitive option. Ford seem to have done the ultimate no risk effort. Join the dominant team and pretty much win with the ford badge on a car right away. The cadillac thing sounds a bit pointless now as they will just tool around at the back if Andretti get on the grid.
Wondering how once again Honda have got themselves in a fix. How much know how was transferred to Red bull?
If honda come back it will be back to square one again with a backmarker team. Maybe thats what they want and its just a process to bring another generation of engineers along.
Mind you the new rules were supposed to make everyone more equal. No sigh of it so far.
McLaren are way behind merc, for me they need to be snapping at the heels before they can consider changing PU supplier to become a works team
Deesee said:
andburg said:
DanielSan said:
Fundoreen said:
Inevitable that US based manufacturers would want to be involved in a US owned sport.
Ford seem to have done the ultimate no risk effort. Join the dominant team and pretty much win with the ford badge on a car right away. The cadillac thing sounds a bit pointless now as they will just tool around at the back if Andretti get on the grid.
Wondering how once again Honda have got themselves in a fix. How much know how was transferred to Red bull?
If honda come back it will be back to square one again with a backmarker team. Maybe thats what they want and its just a process to bring another generation of engineers along.
Mind you the new rules were supposed to make everyone more equal. No sigh of it so far.
Would it be the biggest shock if Honda joined Mclaren again? Rumours seem to suggest Honda do want to continue into 26, Mclaren will only progress so far whilst remaining as a customer team. The toxic side of the previous relationship has mostly disappeared and of the teams on the grid they'd surely be the most credible competitive option. Ford seem to have done the ultimate no risk effort. Join the dominant team and pretty much win with the ford badge on a car right away. The cadillac thing sounds a bit pointless now as they will just tool around at the back if Andretti get on the grid.
Wondering how once again Honda have got themselves in a fix. How much know how was transferred to Red bull?
If honda come back it will be back to square one again with a backmarker team. Maybe thats what they want and its just a process to bring another generation of engineers along.
Mind you the new rules were supposed to make everyone more equal. No sigh of it so far.
McLaren are way behind merc, for me they need to be snapping at the heels before they can consider changing PU supplier to become a works team
Audi seem happy to pick Sauber
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